Thread: Concerning wizardry and sorcery in Middle-Earth

From what I understand, there is no standard mage/wizard-class you can be in lotro because that would go against lore. But what about the Witch-King, then? From what I understand (which might be wrong), he might have been a sorcerer before he became a ringwraith. That shows that there is magic in the world of men, besides the wizard order of the Maia. Or am I misunderstanding something here?

I don't know if it's addressed somewhere in the Letters or History of Middle-Earth books (probably is), but I'd assume he was one of the Black Numenoreans or their descendants that fell under the sway of Sauron when he helped hurry up the corruption of Numenor. Most talk of magic outside of the Five Wizards and elves seems to be well on the evil side of things. It wasn't so much that magic didn't exist, but rather that it tended toward evil and destruction. Also remember that even the White Council didn't know that the Necromancer was Sauron until Gandalf went into Dol Guldur.

So yes, there was some "magic" in the world of men, but almost all of what was mentioned in the books ties it to the service of Mordor.

Wizardry and sorcery in Middle-earth were less about casting spells than most fantasy settings. My understanding is that the magic of Middle-earth was more along the lines of an innate power held by certain beings.

Gandalf and the other 4 wizards were among the most powerful of these beings. Sauron was also a very powerful being, likely beyond the power of the 5 wizards put together. A number of elves that had seen the light of Valinor held some degrees of this power as well.

An example of this is the description of Glorfindal as he is carrying Frodo over the last leg of the journey to Rivendell. For a brief moment, his power came unmasked, and he looked like a very powerful spirit type thing.

The typical man wasn't really cut out to be a sorcerer type. The nazgul were some of very few exceptions - they were powerful kings and leaders of men, among the few strong enough to receive the 9 Rings from Sauron. Those rings gave them a lot more power, since they were created with the help of Sauron.

In The Hobbit, the 13 dwarves were capable of some small degree of magic, casting spells over the pots of gold they found in the Trolls cave so that it would still be there if and when they came back. But as far as I know, you don't ever see them doing that again after that. In fact, they are more or less helpless at some points

Originally Posted by Vhanja

From what I understand, there is no standard mage/wizard-class you can be in lotro because that would go against lore. But what about the Witch-King, then? From what I understand (which might be wrong), he might have been a sorcerer before he became a ringwraith. That shows that there is magic in the world of men, besides the wizard order of the Maia. Or am I misunderstanding something here?

First and foremost, I have spoken on the topic of magic before. You may find it beneficial to take a look at one of my earlier threads for some reference regarding the way I interpert Tolkien's conception of magic.

See: Magic in Tolkien's Middle-earth



Now, in regards to your question: yes, magic was certainly available to men. However, magic isn't quite the same force in Tolkien's works as it is in others like, say, Harry Potter. It's not some mystical occult force driven by spells and incantations, although such things do play some small part. Magic, as conceptualized by Tolkien, seems rather to be an inherent force that permeates and governs the very nature and fibre of the world and its inhabitants.

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 155

Indeed, most elven and dwarven magic is actually little more than extremely refined art and craftsmanship beyond the skills of ordinary men. We see this in dwarven gateways, in elven cloaks and rope, in their armour and arms, and in their jewels and jewellery (especially the Rings of Power). There also seems to be a deep connection between magic and one's force of will as Gandalf exemplifies at numerous points throughout the tale.

I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 131

This artful magic then, isn't really 'magic' as we typically think of it. It is simply a skill, as natural as any other, that requires a measure of artisanship and understanding beyond mortal capabilities. On the other hand, the magic of the Enemy in Tolkien's works is a sort of perversive force aimed at overstepping the limits of nature and even bending them to more effortlessly achieve some end. This, however, is not a clear and distinct difference, but rather one of purpose and intent. The elves use their magic artfully, the Enemy uses his subversively. In describing the intent of magic, Tolkien identifies two forms of it: magia and goeteia—that is (in my own summary), constructive magic and controlling magic. Magia is used to create (as well as destroy) real effects in the world. Goeteia, on the other hand, is used to shape and control the world, whether by the artful bending of natural resources or the bending and domination of other minds. It is very much the difference between forging blades and forging bonds of oppression.

I do not intend to involve myself in any debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real or really possible in the world. But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is a latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goeteia.Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other 'free' wills. The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his, goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet fa'ggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life'.

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 155

For Tolkien, the purpose of magic was immediacy or instant gratification, if you will. Indeed, he viewed magic as a natural analogue of the machine; that is, its sole purpose was to reduce both time and effort. In some respects, the machine could even be thought of as the more efficient, more widely attainable successor of magic. After all, the Professor quite often used these terms interchangeably.

Both sides live mainly by 'ordinary' means. The Enemy, or those who have become like him, go in for 'machinery' – with destructive and evil effects [. . .] The basic motive for magia – quite apart from any philosophic consideration of how it would work – is immediacy: speed, reduction of labour, and reduction also to a minimum (or vanishing point) of the gap between the idea or desire and the result or effect. But the magia may not be easy to come by, and at any rate if you have command of abundant slave-labour or machinery (often only the same thing concealed), it may be as quick or quick enough to push mountains over, wreck forests, or build pyramids by such means.

Ibid.

But at Eregion great work began – and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods [i.e. the Valar]).

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 131

The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines;

Ibid.

Having established a basic understanding of magic, it should now be easier to examine the purported abilities of the Witch-king. As I mentioned, magic was certainally available to men, though I failed to mention that this was almost certainly limited to men of Númenórean ancestry. Indeed, almost all of the sorcery described by Tolkien is attributed to either Sauron or the Black Númenóreans that he swayed to his side. Incidentally, the Witch-king is one such Númenórean. In a footnote to Letter 156, Tolkien wrote:

There were evil Númenóreans: Sauronians, but they do not come into this story, except remotely; as the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl or Ringwraiths.

Now, why were the Númenóreans, alone among men, so capable of utilizing the more than mortal powers of magic? I have speculated before that this was due, in large part, to their descent from Elros and his half-elven bloodline. In fact, there seems to be some suggestion of this in one of Tolkien's own letters, when he speaks of the magic of Aragorn (a later descendant of the Númenóreans):

Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 155

Here again, we see that much of what is regarded as magic is merely a misunderstanding of natural processes for lack of scientific knowledge. But, beyond this, those forces that are, in some respect, considered to be true magic are accessible only to men born of elven ancestry.

Wow, I was actually going down the right path with my answer? Thats new...

(or, maybe I picked the right path and was about to go down it...)

Originally Posted by sir-rinthian

Wow, I was actually going down the right path with my answer? Thats new...

(or, maybe I picked the right path and was about to go down it...)

"It's a dangerous business going out of your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to."

Reddhawk, where have you been? You've been AWOL and I won't stand for it.

OP, you may want to read a few authentic books on Tolkien, and by Tolkien, and about "magic," "sorcery," "wisdom," etc. - rather than accept LOTRO forum-essays on face value. There's a lot of confusion here about sorcerers, wizards, mages and the like, and it's not helped by Turbine's use of in-game "magic" or pop-culture icons like Harry Potter.

Regarding your question - the bottom line is that the Witch-King could very well have been a sorcerer and not violated Tolkien's "rules" about use the metaphysical powers in Middle Earth. Sorcerers don't practice "magic" - they pervert natural forces with the help of evil spirits, and use these forces to influence and warp the minds of others. They're largely shamanistic or witch-like.... In a similar vein, wizards are alchemists and chemists who depend upon substances, catalysts, and interactions to create impressive technologies and illusions. (Gandalf, recall, had something to do with fireworks....) They're largely hands-on "technologists" in an ancient sense. And mages, or "magi" are learned scholars who deal with the arcane powers of words, texts, numbers, and mathematical systems. They're largely "wise men" in the ancient sense.

Tolkien obviously played with some of these concepts for his own purposes. Gandalf was called a "wizard" because of his interests in mundane acts of wizardry like fireworks. Presumably Saruman, whose various names roughly meant "man of skill" or "ingenious man" had the same interests. However, both Gandalf and Saruman were much more than mere wizards, as were the other three of their order. Wizardry was their "cover" in Middle Earth - not the essence of what they were.

So neither sorcery, wizardry, or the powers of the magi would necessarily violate Tolkien's schema - because "magic" does not define them.

Originally Posted by Vhanja

From what I understand, there is no standard mage/wizard-class you can be in lotro because that would go against lore. But what about the Witch-King, then? From what I understand (which might be wrong), he might have been a sorcerer before he became a ringwraith. That shows that there is magic in the world of men, besides the wizard order of the Maia. Or am I misunderstanding something here?

The basics of the lore related to your question has been explored in a competent fashion by Reddhawk.

But to answer your question specifically, Sauron and his minions practice Necromancy as well as things as horrible as human sacrifice. This 'skill' of necromancy could obviously not be used by player characters, because there are no evil player characters allowed. As Tolkien notes in his letters, he lamented at the fact of using the word "Wizard", and he only did so for a lack of a better English word describing the wisdom of the Istari. When Tolkien uses the word Wizard it is "as related to Wise, in an Englishing of their Elvish name, and is used throughout as utterly distinct from Sorcerer or Magician." - Tolkien's Letters #131

Necromancy specifically has to do with contacting the dead, or intercourse of any kind with evil spirits or the deceased. Sauron was able to tempt and twist the men of Numenor, precisely because they did not want to let go of their life and pass from Middle-earth, and they unnaturally extended their lives through dark and evil means. Where 'magic' or the 'machine' in Tolkien's world becomes evil, is when it seeks to break or dominate the natural order set forth by Illuvatar. For Men, the temptation was to extend their lives, and for Elves , because of their bodily immortality, it was to extend their beauty and art beyond the natural order.

Magic in any sense that we know it in modern times, and so often informed by "Dungeons & Dragons" type fantasy, does not really play a part in Tolkien's mythology. Tolkien himself in letter #131 states that Gandalf is closer to what we might think of as an embodied guardian angel.

Thanks for some very informative replies, guys. Hm, I am speculating if Tolkien's lack of D&D-type magic might partly be due to his Roman-Catholic background, seeing as the church in general has a very negative view on magic and wizardry. But that is only speculation, of course.

Originally Posted by Vhanja

Thanks for some very informative replies, guys. Hm, I am speculating if Tolkien's lack of D&D-type magic might partly be due to his Roman-Catholic background, seeing as the church in general has a very negative view on magic and wizardry. But that is only speculation, of course.

It would be logical to say that Tolkien's Judeo-Christian philosophy would inform his view of all aspects of life. The roots of this specific issue would be Judaism's prohibition against necromancy in Deuteronomy 18, which of course Tolkien would later inherit through Catholicism and Christianity in general. Although Judeo-Christian thought from both Old and New Testaments hold necromancy and sorcery to be evil, they are also considered actual, effective and an active practice in our real world. It is interesting to note prophetic scriptures of the of both Old and New Testaments also mention a resurgence and wide-spread growth of sorcery as the "last days" or final world age comes to a close.

It is also important to remember in relation to this topic that prophets, seers and certain classes of Magi as recorded in the bible and other ancient documents, who were not prohibited by biblical mandate practiced skills that to many moderns today, might seem "magical".

An interesting topic to say the least, and one that continues to have a bearing on our own real world today and in the future.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Reddhawk again."

... as we would expect from Reddhawk, well written, informative and complete with sources
... I tip my hat to you.

Originally Posted by tuor66

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Reddhawk again."

Bane of my forum existance...


/sigh

Previously I have postulated that Gandalf's Pyrotechnics were a function of his wearing the ring of fire, Galadriel's water magic, ie the phial, her mirror and the mist that shrouded Lorien from dol guldur were a function of the ring of water, and now you have reminded me that the Witch King was a ring wearer aswell. Thus we have all instances of magic performed by ring wearers in LOTR and the Hobbit and no proof that non ring wearers were capable of performing magic.

I have no doubt that the three rings enhanced the abilities of their bearers but there were other things such as the elvish rope and the Lorien cloaks, those had a kind of magical nature to them. Sting glowing in the presence of Orcs. These items were created by Elves who did not possess rings of power. Then there's many examples by Luthien in the First Age, although she may have had some help from being the daughter of Melian. Finrod Felagund who contested against Sauron chanting songs of power.

Originally Posted by Morthaur

Thus we have all instances of magic performed by ring wearers in LOTR and the Hobbit and no proof that non ring wearers were capable of performing magic.

Originally Posted by Reddhawk

As I mentioned, magic was certainally available to men, though I failed to mention that this was almost certainly limited to men of Númenórean ancestry.

I believe you both have forgotten Beorn:

Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man.

Source: Humphrey Carpenter (editor), 'Letter 144', The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Originally Posted by celticrocks

This 'skill' of necromancy could obviously not be used by player characters, because there are no evil player characters allowed.

Besides Monster players, you mean.

Yeh the basic hole in my arguement was there had to be magic to create the rings in the first place, you guys should have picked me up on this.

sounds like the chicken and the egg.... what came first, the magic or the rings ?

This may have been pointed out but often I see people refer to the istari as both maiar and numbering only 5 while from books by Tolkien I read there were 7, 2 red 2 blue saruman gandalf who was a maiar and radaghast

edit: put 2 brown meant 2 red

If you're referring to the unpublished writings that Christopher Tolkien has put into print, they are full of differences and changing ideas which may contradict each other. There's no final definitive edition for much of this material.

Originally Posted by Morthaur

Yeh the basic hole in my arguement was there had to be magic to create the rings in the first place, you guys should have picked me up on this.

I think you've forgotten that the original topic was the use of magic by Men. The Rings of Power were crafted by Noldor and, except for the Three, with the aid of Sauron.

Originally Posted by Vhanja

But what about the Witch-King, then? From what I understand (which might be wrong), he might have been a sorcerer before he became a ringwraith. That shows that there is magic in the world of men, besides the wizard order of the Maia. Or am I misunderstanding something here?

We don't really know. I think Tolkien mentioned in one of the letters or somewhere that the Witch-King was probably Numenorean, but other than that we know literally nothing about him before he became a wraith. Bear in mind also that naming him the "Witch-King" doesn't really mean much to this discussion - he didn't receive that name until about TA 1300, at which point he'd already been a wraith for some 2500 years.

I don't usually necro dead threads (no pun intended...which you'll see in a moment) but I ran across this in the HOME series Book 10 - Morgoth's Ring. Tolkiien wrote an essay about Elvish Laws and Customs, birth, marriage, death, re-birth and their 'spirit' vs their 'body'. This part jumped out at me and perhaps is Tolkien's way of hinting at the origin and abilities of someone like the Witch King. The subject was regarding Unbodied spirits who refused the call to Mandos to await rebirth.

"To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies , if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is the peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them."

It seems that the suggestion is that Sauron and his followers may have been in the habit of capturing people and allowing spirits to possess them. They would then try to use the spirits in these hi-jacked bodies as servants. The Chief of the Nazgul would be well placed to learn and use these techniques. There's also the suggestion, once again, that everything evil, Arda Marred, seems to stem back to Sauron and Morgoth before him. Men might have had magic but they were ultimately pupils of the original Evil.

Originally Posted by tuor66

I don't usually necro dead threads (no pun intended...which you'll see in a moment) but I ran across this in the HOME series Book 10 - Morgoth's Ring. Tolkiien wrote an essay about Elvish Laws and Customs, birth, marriage, death, re-birth and their 'spirit' vs their 'body'. This part jumped out at me and perhaps is Tolkien's way of hinting at the origin and abilities of someone like the Witch King. The subject was regarding Unbodied spirits who refused the call to Mandos to await rebirth.

"To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies , if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is the peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them."

It seems that the suggestion is that Sauron and his followers may have been in the habit of capturing people and allowing spirits to possess them. They would then try to use the spirits in these hi-jacked bodies as servants. The Chief of the Nazgul would be well placed to learn and use these techniques. There's also the suggestion, once again, that everything evil, Arda Marred, seems to stem back to Sauron and Morgoth before him. Men might have had magic but they were ultimately pupils of the original Evil.

Sounds familiar...

“When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.” - Luke 11:24-26

Originally Posted by Reddhawk

Here again, we see that much of what is regarded as magic is merely a misunderstanding of natural processes for lack of scientific knowledge. But, beyond this, those forces that are, in some respect, considered to be true magic are accessible only to men born of elven ancestry

The House of Elros is not only unique because it has elven blood. Luthien was only half-elf herself, the other half being Maia (the same beings as Gandalf, Sauron). While the amount of Maiar blood is tiny when you get to Aragorn, it's a decent amount when you look at Elrond (1/16th), his sons, and Arwen (1/32).