Thread: Aggro Issues

I've started raiding about a month or two back since I've moved into a raiding kin. However, I'm noticing issues I've never dealt with before, I'm building up a ridiculous amount of aggro way too quickly. In DN last week, we were on the Blind One, and I didn't hit it for the first two phases. Come phase three, I'm told to go in and start DPSing, I hit feral strikes and a clobber, maybe a couple of auto attacks went off, but I got aggro over a champ and guard who have been on it since the beginning, and I keep it till I die.

Today we go into DN again, and we get to Flagot (or some such) and we let the guard build up some aggro and pull him near the entrance. After he gets it there, he's been on it for 10-20 seconds, and I through a couple brutal rotations with my 2h'er and get aggro, luckily I was able to ebbing in time before I died, but this is becoming a problem.

I keep aggro in group pulls without using Raging Blades, which I've been staying away from due to this aggro problem. In HoC, I kept aggro over 90% of the mobs while in ardour, over the main guard in my kin (granted he was in OP) and multiple (3 IIRC) other champs in fervour.

This would be great if I was MT, but I'm not, and my raid leader (the kin's main guard) has been trying to work it out with me, but I cannot find the answer as to why this is happening. What could be the cause of all this? What skills besides raging blades and ferocious strikes (and wild attack when traited) generate extra non-dps threat, and how much?

-Amanhir, rez-muncher; as dubbed by his kin.

Ebbing Ire is your solution. It's possible your Champion may have simply progressed to a point where he's powerful enough to do what he's designed to do very well: DPS. The game is designed so that aggro is a team effort, meaning DPS classes can and will pull DPS if they try, and in some cases if they don't try. I've pulled off of our kin's best Guardians even in Ardour before as well, but it's no small task. It's possible that your kin's Guards may need to pour on the heat a little more in regards to threat.

Regardless, any which way, good tanks or bad tanks, good DPS or bad DPS, you should Ebbing Ire more. Always. Get a rune with Ebbing cooldown maxed. That's a 1m cooldown Ebbing Ire you can use to your advantage. I use it even when I don't have aggro to ensure there's no chance of me getting aggro; so they Guardian can keep it 100% of the time, which is good. And consider that it's not just for your benefit, it's for the other DPS classes' benefits so they can pour on even more DPS, and for the Minstrel's benefit so they don't have to split healing or worry about the others more than is necessary.

So, in conclusion, Ebbing Ire, always. Always, always, always. Forever. It's not unlikely you'll pull again after an Ebb, especially since the earlier the Ebb the less effective it is (it's percentile based, meaning the more time you have to build threat, the more you can transfer), but that doesn't mean there's a reason to not Ebb again. Ebb all the time. It costs 4 pips, yes, but it only goes to making the group work more efficiently, period. No questions asked. If you're tricky, you can even Rise off someone like a Hunter or Minstrel and then Ebb it onto the Guardian, thus effectively transferring some of the Hunter's to the Guardian. How cool is that? Thing is, constant Ebbing ensures the Guardian is consistently higher on the threat list, meaning everyone else has that much more freedom to let loose, not just you.

And if you find that four pips every one or two minutes is too much, work on your rotation, because even outside of 4/5 Zerker I have pips coming out the wazoo.

sounds like your tanks fail. but, of course, when a dpser pulls agro its never the tank's fault, its always the dps being out of control

The other Champs in your group are secretly plotting your doom. They are obviously Rising off the tank and Ebbing on to you in order to kill you as often as possible. The tanks are most likely in on it as well.

Are they Dwarves? They tend to be a bit cranky around Elves, especially ones that try and take "their jobs" instead of mincing around in a robe like they're supposed to.

Ebbing ire definitely. The other thing to recognize is that in some boss fights (Blind One and the SG lightning boss most notably) the knockback from the boss resets agro. So you might actually not be doing anything that would cause that to happen. Good raid teams discuss and try to work through things and it sounds like you are off to a good start.

On a personal note I have played my champ and guardian in raids regularly. One thing to keep in mind is that, if it isn't a pain on the healer, there isn't anything wrong with ANY heavy armor having agro as long as they survive. I have found my time on my guardian much more enjoyable to simply let whoever has agro keep it and go into OP.

You have encountered what I lovingly call a failtank. I've seen these before in SG. I have pulled aggro while rooted away from the mob and autoattacking with my bow. That crit for 215 must have done it. Like the others have said, get a rune with ebbing ire cooldown and max it out. Learn when to use it, and when to just tank the mob.

Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken

The other Champs in your group are secretly plotting your doom. They are obviously Rising off the tank and Ebbing on to you in order to kill you as often as possible. The tanks are most likely in on it as well.

Are they Dwarves? They tend to be a bit cranky around Elves, especially ones that try and take "their jobs" instead of mincing around in a robe like they're supposed to.

Heh.. this is what I was thinking. Hard to believe you'd get aggro so quickly vs people who had plenty of time to build it unless there was a conspiracy at work.

Find a new kinship.

Originally Posted by Reonath

Ebbing ire definitely. The other thing to recognize is that in some boss fights (Blind One and the SG lightning boss most notably) the knockback from the boss resets agro.

^^This. When you (and all the group) get hit by a knockback, dont attack, push F1 or taget a fellow, dont be the first hitting the boss or you will get aggro; the tank should save a taunt for these situations (which will happen sooner or later in these fights)

Maxed rising and maxed ebbing (get some clickies) on your LI's will help a lot.

If you get aggro too soon, hold it a little, use your heals, pots and keep doing a dps rotation a couple of secs and then ebb. (the more dps, the more threat you transfer) this is because as someone said before, ebbing is based on % and if you get aggro too soon and immediatly ebb, you will be transfering a little amount of threat and prolly get aggro again but with ebbing on cooldown.

You might even try rising ire off of another DPSer, then ebbing ire to the tank. Mathematics... you'll be off the charts for a few seconds, but soon enough the tank will have all the Ire he wants or needs. That's what I do with Hunters who can't WAIT to start poking the boss from range before anyone can even close to do anything to gain aggro. Stupid hunters...

You're tank sucks... Why is he in OP while in HoC? If the bleeds and poisions some of those mobs have get on anyone other than the tank, they can go down very fast... especially champs. I hate doing HoC with a ****ty guardian.

If you are giving the tank time to build up aggro, not using Raging Blades and not getting massive crits it is the tank's fault plain and simple. It may be that the other champions in your kin don't do as much DPS as you due to weapon/stat differences so the guard is not used to dealing with it. It is not easy to keep aggro off of a champ but anyone who is raiding as a Guard needs to be able to do it.

As a side note, make sure you get ahold of a rune with -ebbing ire cooldown. You can swap that in, ebb and swap back to your normal to half the cooldown. This way you can ebb proactively instead of reactively.

Originally Posted by Felaedor

Find a new kinship.

*saluteeeeeeee

The kin works very well with eachother. I find that we do what needs to be done even through mistakes. Yesterday we were messing up rather horribly in DN and recovering well and quickly after. Additionally, two days ago we attempted Durchest HM for the first time. Got him down the second try and got 3 armor peices. I'm not leaving this kin, it works well together.

As for the guard, many people have respect for him, he tanks the trolls in DN together and keeps aggro on them both the entire time instead of doing the two tank method, and can definately keep aggro better than a pug tank. He just has his own idea of how to run HoC, and says that it shouldnt need as much order as we put into a raid considering how well we do.

I do need to start getting into the habit of ebbing more often though. I had been running for a month or two with a guard who can keep aggro on everything in SG while I was in fervour SHING SHINGing as often as I could (even the brute 95% of the time) without me having to ebbing onto him. I'll see if it helps, it just seems odd to me that I can keep aggro over so many others, when I'm trying not to get it. I have been thinking it was a conspiracy, but more in favor of turbine hating me <_<

Assuming your attributes are close or at 650 with captain IDOME and you are using a 2H and not dual wielding, you probably are getting a lot of high aggro building critical strikes off. Switching to dual wielding helps a bit...you'll get more auto-attacks in for DPS without the massive crits.

If you are already dual wielding and assuming you are in the stat sweetspot where it seems you can't stop from getting critical strikes, then be sure to use your ire skills to shift damage away from you and on to the tank. I'm not sure if it's more sad or more comical but even burgs can pull agro off main tanks when they are in a critical strike sweetspot statwise.

If those things don't help and/or you are not getting a lot of critical strikes in but are getting aggro, try changing your rotation to slow down your DPS. It might seem ineffective but if you enjoy running with your current group that should keep everyone from the tank to the healers happy.

Originally Posted by Reonath

Ebbing ire definitely. The other thing to recognize is that in some boss fights (Blind One and the SG lightning boss most notably) the knockback from the boss resets agro. So you might actually not be doing anything that would cause that to happen. Good raid teams discuss and try to work through things and it sounds like you are off to a good start.

This is worth noting. Don't forget this. Not every knockback = threat wipe, but in many cases, such as Blind One, BG Twins, Alagossir in SG, Caerlug in Waterwheels and maybe a couple others, this is the baddie that's mucking you up. There are also some threat wipes that are not knockbacks, such as the Armoured Maces in BG (though that one is temporary, not permanent like the others).

Originally Posted by newwwwb

sounds like your tanks fail. but, of course, when a dpser pulls agro its never the tank's fault, its always the dps being out of control

lol after I read his post the first phrase that came to my head was "Sounds like your tanks are slacking"

if you're pulling over 3 other champs in ardor and you're ebbing and they're all in fervor then someone is slacking and it's not you (/end run on sentence)

Originally Posted by IGolbezI

lol after I read his post the first phrase that came to my head was "Sounds like your tanks are slacking"

if you're pulling over 3 other champs in ardor and you're ebbing and they're all in fervor then someone is slacking and it's not you (/end run on sentence)

This. No way a champ in Ardour should be pulling aggro from 1 champ in Fervour, let alone 3. I pull aggro from leanly-geared Ardour champs with my LM. There's no way you should be able to steal it from Fervour champs. Mind you, I said should. If they're all lower level that you and have inferior weapons, I guess it's still possible, but still it shouldn't be a routine problem.

Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken

The other Champs in your group are secretly plotting your doom. They are obviously Rising off the tank and Ebbing on to you in order to kill you as often as possible. The tanks are most likely in on it as well.

Are they Dwarves? They tend to be a bit cranky around Elves, especially ones that try and take "their jobs" instead of mincing around in a robe like they're supposed to.

Darn, this guy beat me to it.

I was about to post pretty much this exact thing, + rep for you

1) Flagit wipes threat with his aoe knockback, whoever does the most threat afterward will get it, which is usually the champ since hunter skills take longer and the champ gets hits in first. We did it the other night and I had it 90% of the fight in CB.
Thats normal for that fight.

2) You're better off helping dps BO in the 2nd phase some, just lightly, even if its just autos. Then when you Ebb, you actually HAVE something to Ebb. Better to be fairly high on the list and then ebb, because you not only go down, but the tank goes up too.

3) I need to talk to champs about this, but I am becoming convinced that clobber has some kind of additional threat element to it. Maybe all interrupt skills do by nature, as if mobs don't like being interrupted.Though I think it still applies even when you don't actually interrupt something but just hit them with it. When I'm just using a WA, SS, BS I don't have too big a problem taking agro on the the big soldier dudes in BG, but as soon as I make that WA, SS, BS Clobber, BAM I've got agro like crazy. In that case, perhaps I'm just real close to it and the added dps of the clobber rotation puts me over the top, but I notice it in other situations where I'm pretty sure that my slight dps increase isn't all thats happening.
You might want to experiment with a non-clobber rotation.
Dunno if you're using relentless, but brutal instead will both help with more dps and not pulling agro on the occasional big crit from RS

stay ahead of your aggro if you can... i like to ebb before i pull aggro from dps. its just easier on the healer that way

my champ did recently become able to pull aggro from our guard with just dps and its no fault of our guard, he is awesome. its just what happens when you kill kill kill

the brutes in SG really dont like me when i start to aoe with blood pact on hehe

Originally Posted by TurinThalion

3) I need to talk to champs about this, but I am becoming convinced that clobber has some kind of additional threat element to it. Maybe all interrupt skills do by nature, as if mobs don't like being interrupted.Though I think it still applies even when you don't actually interrupt something but just hit them with it. When I'm just using a WA, SS, BS I don't have too big a problem taking agro on the the big soldier dudes in BG, but as soon as I make that WA, SS, BS Clobber, BAM I've got agro like crazy. In that case, perhaps I'm just real close to it and the added dps of the clobber rotation puts me over the top, but I notice it in other situations where I'm pretty sure that my slight dps increase isn't all thats happening.
You might want to experiment with a non-clobber rotation.
Dunno if you're using relentless, but brutal instead will both help with more dps and not pulling agro on the occasional big crit from RS

I think it may also have something to do with the immediate burst damage, by adding in clobber after brutal or relentless is almost adding another strike, and the damage is usually fairly clumped together meaning instead of 700-900 damage from brutal within 1 to 2 seconds it seems more like 950-1200 within one or two second's time. Not sure of how it would affect over longer periods of time.