Digging down in a hole... not magical.
Camouflage to blend in with the nature... not magical.
Hmm I don't know. Digging down in a hole instantly or "camouflaging" without a single tree or bush in sight seem pretty magical to me.
I think it should take spiders atleast a day to dig their hole to burrow in and hunters should have to equip ghillie suits if they want to camo. That would be a bit more realistic.
Hmm I don't know. Digging down in a hole instantly or "camouflaging" without a single tree or bush in sight seem pretty magical to me.
I think it should take spiders atleast a day to dig their hole to burrow in and hunters should have to equip ghillie suits if they want to camo. That would be a bit more realistic.
Well, youre confusing Lie In Wait with Trapdoor Sanctuary. Lie In Wait is definatly not a quick skill to bury down with and cant be used in combat either. Camoflage is perhaps a little to fast in that sense to be realistic, one would assume the Hunter would actually have to prepare the spot/himself a little, but since its also out of combat its not that of a big deal imo.
Trapdoor Sanctuary could be discussed tho, thats some fast burrowing right there! Unless we assume they have already digged holes here and there over the map for quick escape purposes. Although possible, perhaps not so convincing after all
Some have been saying that Camoflage is worse than Lie In Wait, but I dare to say they are pretty good both. Something Camo have which LiW doesnt is the fact you can do skills from camo, everything from removing poison on friends nearby to mapping out of there (or is that DF?) Camo also have a CD of 10 secs compared to LiWs 30 sec. Camo also works instantly, while LiW have about 5 secs induction time (CD and induction makes it harder for a spider to reburrow compared to Camo.)
Does the good parts about Camo seem like to little of a bonus for being able to get tracked and sometimes discovered in stealth? Not to me which is an avid ambusher, I would love to be able to initiate an attack from burrow and if it failed I wouldnt be revealed. This can have great impacts on the outcome. The insta is very golden too. Not to mention I would love to get back home to mommy if the evul enemies are trying to smoke me out aswell, which there is no hope for in a burrow if someone sits and waits you out. That being said, both of the skills have their advantages and disadvantages. Hopefully after this little runthru there might be more hunters starting to appreciate that skill tho.
The context of this discussion is HIPS. The question is straight forward and simple: Is the HIPS tool tip incorrect or not? If it isn't, please provide the Turbine post that identifies this problem so we all know it's in fact wrong and not a case of you wanting it differently.
Is the HIPS tooltip in-game stated correctly?
I guess we'll never know.
The context of the discussion is PvMP. Talk to Turbine if you have complaints about NPC code.
When HIPS is triggered all Players will immediately lose targetting on the Burg.
Have I stated the mechanics truthfully? If there is a skill that completely nullifies the HIPS effect when thrown, what is it?
In the Moors yesterday I and two others popped a CJ on a Burg and he HIPs'd right out from under it. So, it seems to be working well.
If the burglar was able to HIP's from a CJ, I would say he's probably got a hack running, because normal burglars aren't able to HIPS while they are being CJ'd. More often than not, they are killed before the CJ fades. And I have had NPC's and MP's retain me on their target, follow me with no hitch, after a HIPS.
Is that a yes or a no? Your second paragraph does identify a skill that will reset some cooldowns. Is HIPS included in that list?
The specific question was aimed at traiting a specific way, to reset HIPS. There is no such trait.
Agreed. Burgs are a class with a generous number of skills that cover a wide array of tactical abilities on the map.
Melee based, but with ranged CC.
Stealth for approach.
Openers out of stealth as well as CC to help lockdown a target once engaged in Melee.
Debuffs to further degrade an ambushed targets ability to function against them.
Escape abilities allowing Burgs to pop out from under aggressors, whether to simply re-stealth after a successful ambush or to simply disappear if it goes sour for them.
All of which have a much more effective counter than any of the skills a burglar has been given.
There are other classes on the Moors that don't enjoy the same degree of flexibility in game-play
And they also don't have to deal with the excessive amount of counters to their flexibility, so much so that it makes such flexibility useless.
Your assessment of a BA's ability and strengths was rather inaccurate. The only thing they really need IS the ability to inflict damage and CC from 40m range. With that alone, they are suitable for nearly any area of the 'moors map, and with that range, they also have the luxury of never having to leave the safety of the top floor of a keep in defense. They have it rather easy.
Your opinion. Mine is: Having a skill that drops targetting from all opponents, instantly, is slick and powerful. My direct experience has always been:
You have a rather conservative and inaccurate view of the life of a burglar. Maybe you should try it sometime.
Not a lot of sympathy here given the extended time Burgs were bag-swap exploiting to completely nullify all detection mechanics on the map, trackers or otherwise. I mean, it went BEYOND just trackers. Stealth got reset globally dropping the Burg from view regardless of how they got detected.
I believe that has now been fixed, and long overdue.
It hasn't been confirmed to have been a bug or exploit, or to have been "fixed." The game is dynamic, as advertised, which doesn't mean that every change made in the game is a fix, due to a bug or exploit. Turbine has never specifically stated it to have been a bug, exploit, or fix.
Trackers can only be spammed in group combat, assuming race-makeup of the group matches the target and everyone is coordinated in timing the use of their trackers. In those circumstances, yes, a Stealth class can be tracked multiple times within short order from different people.
Solo, even small group, Trackers usually aren't spammed because of the cooldown.
Disagree, from personal experience both with fellow creeps, and against them as a stealth class.
I also get tired of spending exhorbitant amounts of gold to buy enough trackers so that I can simply pop trackers every time my cooldown is up as I walk across the landscape of the Moors. So no, I don't pop a tracker every 50 steps across the landscape.
Many players have enough time and money to do so. You are not the standard, you are the exception.
Bards Arrow greybars all myskills and applies a slow. So I'm still afflicted with that, along with 20+ second roots, slows, stuns both in dedicated attacks as well as chance-to-proc stuns on DPS skills.
Petition it.
Don't know what you are alluding to here. Creeps start at R0 with virtually no skills. Freeps can level in PvE and enter the Moors with a full suite of skills available at the outset.
Creeps at r0 enter the 'moors prelevelled, with enough PvP-centric skills to make them successful. Players of the Creep side can instantly change their class at any time, to have the correct class for the specific situation. Freeps not only bring PvE-centric skills to the 'moors, but they must spend years and years leveling up, traiting up, finding sufficient gear, etc.
Every Hunter that enters the Moors does so with Tracking abilities online.
Not true.
I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.
It is honestly no worse that Wargs hitting Disappear and still being Hit by NPCs...
and I Dont meant just during the first few moments or "they already had attacked"... kinda thing
I mean you disappear and they still chase you down while attacking.
I do like Olagaton's idea for an immunity timer for tracking, which would force groups to coordinate. Smart trackers already know when to refrain from following through on an initiated track, just judging by the distance list. So an immunity timer might end up just preventing spam tracking, which is not really that effective of a technique anyway.
I'd be happy with this "if" they also made tracking actually instant, rather than having a 5-10 second wait between selecting a target, and actually having it show up. Oh, and enforce a "relatively" slow movement speed (on both sides).
Sure, HiPS/Disappear should help a player escape. But I don't think it should be unstoppable. Currently (and I admit this is harder on burgs than wargs) the "counter" is to track fast enough while said target is HiPSed, before they get far enough away to simply "run" away. Wargs can sprint to help get away, but I think freeps have more ranged CC available to stop runners.
Originally Posted by olagaton
Your assessment of a BA's ability and strengths was rather inaccurate. The only thing they really need IS the ability to inflict damage and CC from 40m range. With that alone, they are suitable for nearly any area of the 'moors map, and with that range, they also have the luxury of never having to leave the safety of the top floor of a keep in defense. They have it rather easy.
A BA has one 40m ranged CC skill. It's also their only CC skill, is a 4 second root only if traited, and has an induction. They have no realistically useful skills against a competent player to get back to their 40m range, and hindering shot is generally useless at keeping a target at 40m anyway, since most classes either ignore the slow/root, or have skills to ignore/avoid the slow root.
Yes, BAs do well when they can sit up top of a keep when the enemy is approaching. I'm sure burgs can do well when trying to capture people returning to front lines from res circles too.
Originally Posted by olagaton
Creeps at r0 enter the 'moors prelevelled, with enough PvP-centric skills to make them successful. Players of the Creep side can instantly change their class at any time, to have the correct class for the specific situation. Freeps not only bring PvE-centric skills to the 'moors, but they must spend years and years leveling up, traiting up, finding sufficient gear, etc.
BA: At rank 0, flame arrow (doing around 1100 over the 20 seconds). One slow. Two other damage skills.
Warg: At rank 0, stealth. Two damage skills. One CJ-creating skill.
Spider: At rank 0, One root. Two damage skills. One debuff.
WL: At rank 0, one heal, one shout, one melee attack.
Defiler: At rank 0, two heals. Two attacks. One slow.
Reaver: At rank 0, one slow, one debuff, three attacks.
I'm sorry, but if you think that all (or even any) of those is enough to be successful,
If you do not even try to communicate using clear and concise English, I will ignore you.
...(hobbit burgs can even use a quick racial stealth to break tracks)....
*snicker* Uhhh, really? Maybe you mean feign death... lol.
Originally Posted by olagaton
...For your benefit, I'll break it down in short sentences. You see, when you get tracked, they know your location. You run slow in stealth. Your opponent runs faster than you in stealth. If you unstealth, you run faster, but your opponent has long range CC skills and massive run speed boosts. If you are lucky enough to be able to last the 10 seconds it takes to restealth before being caught up to, another uruk can simply re-track you. Rinse, repeat.
To assess the issue, Turbine can fix tracking, or they can fix the combination of run speed buffs, ranged CC, cooldowns on stealth, or any other aspect of PvP mentioned in this conversation, but fixing the frequency of being tracked would certainly be the easiest, quickest, and an efficient fix that wouldn't break other content.
This is a great description of what is happening. It neuters stealth in many ways.
Originally Posted by Brongdha
....If you get tracked by a warg, it does not have long-range CC skills.
Wrong. Sprint + pounce + uncurable dots + slows is definitely considered long range CC in my book. Warg's sprint about as fast as an arrow goes anyway..
Originally Posted by olagaton
...Sorry but 10 seconds of not being able to be tracked every 7-10 minutes is simply not enough to preserve the use of stealth by the classes that rely on stealth to contribute to their sides.
This. Seriously.
Originally Posted by Silverbranch
The tooltip info I see says:
"You can disappear from before your enemy's eyes. For a little while, your Stealth is improved, and even taking damage will not break your cover. Using this skill will not break Stealth"
The tooltip was updated to state very clear that the burg should be 'undectable' for those 10 seconds. Period. End of story.
"Dear Devs, Please nerf Rock. Paper is okay. Sincerely, Scissors."
Yes, BAs do well when they can sit up top of a keep when the enemy is approaching. I'm sure burgs can do well when trying to capture people returning to front lines from res circles too.
BA's never even have to see the res circle if they utilize their class skills correctly. Unlike BA's, a Burg's primary class skill gets neutralized if they are tracked, which eliminates rez circle camping as a possible option. That is, unless by res circle camping you meant the burg dying repeatedly and sitting at his own res circle, which is what happens because they cannot endure being tracked and DoT'd down.
BA: At rank 0, flame arrow (doing around 1100 over the 20 seconds). One slow. Two other damage skills.
Warg: At rank 0, stealth. Two damage skills. One CJ-creating skill.
Spider: At rank 0, One root. Two damage skills. One debuff.
WL: At rank 0, one heal, one shout, one melee attack.
Defiler: At rank 0, two heals. Two attacks. One slow.
Reaver: At rank 0, one slow, one debuff, three attacks.
Can those skills be relied upon to kill or help kill Freeps? Yes. Are those skills available immediately upon creating that toon? Yes. That makes them good and reliable PvP skills. They are not the greatest skills ever, but in comparison to a level 1 Freep (since we are talking about rolling a new toon), they are certainly better. That is certainly a Creep advantage, for any situation that may arise in the 'moors.
I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.
Direct experience has shown me the efficacy of HIPS, along with other Burg skills, provides Burgs with a highly reliable toolset to effect escapes, into the vast majority of the time. 100% totally guaranteed across all scenarios and timings and cooldowns a-burning or not? No. But it is a FAR cry from being "broken".
HIPS guarantees the immediate breaking of targetting by all opponents and the immediate cessation of all DPS with the exception of DoTs still present. Opponents are forced into secondary activities to try and guesstimate the Burgs reappearance point after 10 seconds to re-acquire targetting and interception. This is correct, is it not?
There are no skills that can be traited by Burgs that will reset cooldowns?
from my experiance hips is FAR from guaranteed if it works even 1/2 the time im happy cuz it seems like im attacked while hipsed more then i'm not attacked. and there is no skills that have to be traited to reset hips. ready and able doesnt have a trait and resets all skills but the racial. and some skills like touch and go can actually be reset twice if the burg is grouped and uses an actually cj and not just use the cj as a stun.
Just to call it like it is.. I've been playing since beta.. I've never played a hobbit.. then, after reading your post I went to http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Hobbit_Traits and shat myself.
"Dear Devs, Please nerf Rock. Paper is okay. Sincerely, Scissors."
Can wargs/burgs be CCed while in HiPS or Disappear? I realise they can't be targetted, but what if a warg hits Disappear, and stands next to another freep who gets hit with a champ horn or something?
If you do not even try to communicate using clear and concise English, I will ignore you.
Can wargs/burgs be CCed while in HiPS or Disappear?
yes, they can. champ horn works fine, for example, on wargs. just as rain of thorns and all the other AOE CC freeps have
burgs are subject to that spider skill that applies a stun while in vanish. its not that big of a deal, as they can find footing, but generally, it works. there is not much AOE CC on creepside
@Anetheroc/Brongdha: I did not check all your posts, so it may be mentioned before: vanished burgs can map (freep maps work in combat)
BA's never even have to see the res circle if they utilize their class skills correctly. Unlike BA's, a Burg's primary class skill gets neutralized if they are tracked, which eliminates rez circle camping as a possible option. That is, unless by res circle camping you meant the burg dying repeatedly and sitting at his own res circle, which is what happens because they cannot endure being tracked and DoT'd down.
Can those skills be relied upon to kill or help kill Freeps? Yes. Are those skills available immediately upon creating that toon? Yes. That makes them good and reliable PvP skills. They are not the greatest skills ever, but in comparison to a level 1 Freep (since we are talking about rolling a new toon), they are certainly better. That is certainly a Creep advantage, for any situation that may arise in the 'moors.
You seem to be confused over Domain.
Freeps are prohibited from entering the Moors at level 1. Or 20. Or 30.
Unless it's been changed it's minimum level 40. Given the current cap anyone even in the 50's that dares enter the Moors is smoked.
For all intents and purposes it's level 65 as the comparison. You might talk me into believing 62 or so.
I'm at a loss as to how you'd attempt to use a Freep Level 1 as a comparison to ANY mode of conversation or comparison in the Moors.
Scorpashi, R7 BA
Bushwack, R6 Weaver
Snakeoil, R3 Defiler
Freeps are prohibited from entering the Moors at level 1. Or 20. Or 30.
Unless it's been changed it's minimum level 40. Given the current cap anyone even in the 50's that dares enter the Moors is smoked.
For all intents and purposes it's level 65 as the comparison. You might talk me into believing 62 or so.
I'm at a loss as to how you'd attempt to use a Freep Level 1 as a comparison to ANY mode of conversation or comparison in the Moors.
The point being made is that a Creep can bring whatever "role" toon he needs at any time, whereas a Freep must spend months and months of building/leveling his toon to allow him the opportunity to have the "role" toon he needs at a given time.
Creeps can log out, re-roll a new creep, and be ready to fight and help their team in the 'moors with a new roleplaying toon. Freeps can log out, re-roll a new freep, and start leveling up from 1, while their friends die in the 'moors.
I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.
Hobbit Hunters can feign death and then instantly DF, and Captains can last stand and log out.
Theres something fun with that tactic we in the spider groups sometimes do to thoose Hobbit Hunters who try it. Just spamming TK button on them as they lay there. The result is that they sure will get the DF off, but they will either die from the TK attack itself or from the DoTs while they are loading over to the nearest Rez circle. Making them arrive dead. We dont get any infamy from it, but its a good feeling towards thoose who use this cheezy tactic
Killing a Boogan somm'ers, 'cause they remind me of Bogarts.
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Re: Being Tracked in HIPS
Originally Posted by olagaton
The point being made is that a Creep can bring whatever "role" toon he needs at any time, whereas a Freep must spend months and months of building/leveling his toon to allow him the opportunity to have the "role" toon he needs at a given time.
Creeps can log out, re-roll a new creep, and be ready to fight and help their team in the 'moors with a new roleplaying toon. Freeps can log out, re-roll a new freep, and start leveling up from 1, while their friends die in the 'moors.
Heh, and how many level 40+ toons do you have?
I myself have; 65 Guard, 63 Champ, 60 RK, 55 Burg, 50 Warden, 45 Hunter. And I don't PvMP with my freeps toons.
Your "months and months" point is moot, as the game has been here for 36 months. If you're a PvP person and you haven't leveled the classes think you will need to 'swap' to, then it's your fault.
****Bogarts! We hates Bogarts!****
Best Mod quote EVER = "Closing the thread, as the OP has quit the forums." - Patience
I myself have; 65 Guard, 63 Champ, 60 RK, 55 Burg, 50 Warden, 45 Hunter. And I don't PvMP with my freeps toons.
Your "months and months" point is moot, as the game has been here for 36 months. If you're a PvP person and you haven't leveled the classes think you will need to 'swap' to, then it's your fault.
LOL, are any of those toons rocking the perfect build? Are all their virtues maxxed? Do they have all of their legendaries? Perfect legendary weapons, maxxed? All for their level? I doubt it. So in the 3 years, you have yet to max out your toons like a ranked cookie cutter Creep could.
I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.
Killing a Boogan somm'ers, 'cause they remind me of Bogarts.
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Re: Being Tracked in HIPS
Originally Posted by olagaton
LOL, are any of those toons rocking the perfect build? Are all their virtues maxxed? Do they have all of their legendaries? Perfect legendary weapons, maxxed? All for their level? I doubt it. So in the 3 years, you have yet to max out your toons like a ranked cookie cutter Creep could.
I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about rolling a new creep just to fill what "role" was needed.
"Creeps can log out, re-roll a new creep, and be ready to fight and help their team in the 'moors with a new roleplaying toon." -olagaton
Yep, that's what you said. So I think any level 60+ freep would fit that bill, AND do it much better than a rank 0 creep would.
So, again, how many freep toons do you have that you can swap out as needed?
****Bogarts! We hates Bogarts!****
Best Mod quote EVER = "Closing the thread, as the OP has quit the forums." - Patience
Creeps can log out, re-roll a new creep, and be ready to fight and help their team in the 'moors with a new roleplaying toon. Freeps can log out, re-roll a new freep, and start leveling up from 1, while their friends die in the 'moors.
You are such a tool ... how many times you going to spew same exact nonsense. Rank 0 creep is useless, it takes months to get to rank 7-9 where a creep can begin holding his own vs a freep class. Also for a creep to rank he has to kill a freep player not a scripted npc that freeps mindlesly grind to get to 65.
LOL, are any of those toons rocking the perfect build? Are all their virtues maxxed? Do they have all of their legendaries? Perfect legendary weapons, maxxed? All for their level? I doubt it. So in the 3 years, you have yet to max out your toons like a ranked cookie cutter Creep could.
Perfect build for a creep is rank 15 ... how many of those we have running around
I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about rolling a new creep just to fill what "role" was needed.
I am.
Yep, that's what you said. So I think any level 60+ freep would fit that bill, AND do it much better than a rank 0 creep would.
So a naked level 60+ Freep would fill a role just as well as a naked 65 creep? Interesting that you believe that.
Originally Posted by gnomz420
You are such a tool ... how many times you going to spew same exact nonsense. Rank 0 creep is useless, it takes months to get to rank 7-9 where a creep can begin holding his own vs a freep class. Also for a creep to rank he has to kill a freep player not a scripted npc that freeps mindlesly grind to get to 65.
You are misguided. A r0 creep is very effective when used correctly. As I've seen and been involved with many times, r0 raids have taken on freep raids and won before.
Originally Posted by gnomz420
Perfect build for a creep is rank 15 ... how many of those we have running around
Reading 4tw. Perfect build for their level/rank. The perfect build for a r6 reaver, for example, is available to any r6 reaver with very minimal effort/luck.
I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.
You are misguided. A r0 creep is very effective when used correctly. As I've seen and been involved with many times, r0 raids have taken on freep raids and won before.
So is a raid of lvl 40s if you have enough of them and use them correctly.
So is a raid of lvl 40s if you have enough of them and use them correctly.
If you have enough of them.....
However, i can guarantee that a random raid full of creeps will have access to a raid full of r0 toons of a specific role, whereas no one can guarantee that a random raid full of freeps will have access to a raid full of level 40 specific role toons.
If there was a mechanic in place that allowed Freeps to have immediate access to the class of choice, pre-built, pre-leveled, then the argument would be put to rest. But they don't, so the argument and advantage stands.
I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.
However, i can guarantee that a random raid full of creeps will have access to a raid full of r0 toons of a specific role, whereas no one can guarantee that a random raid full of freeps will have access to a raid full of level 40 specific role toons.
If there was a mechanic in place that allowed Freeps to have immediate access to the class of choice, pre-built, pre-leveled, then the argument would be put to rest. But they don't, so the argument and advantage stands.
Please try to fight me in anyway on a greenie. or with a group of greenies. Infact Ill challenge you to a 4vs1 on my warden or a 3vs1 on my LM vs all green rank zero creeps. Then you can tell me they are effective.
~Kerishnak Rank 9 Reaver!~~ ~~Vajyno Rank 5 Defiler~~ ~~Namrod Rank 8 Loremaster of Eru~~ ~~Feynor Rank 6 warden oh and a rank 4 ezmode warg
However, i can guarantee that a random raid full of creeps will have access to a raid full of r0 toons of a specific role, whereas no one can guarantee that a random raid full of freeps will have access to a raid full of level 40 specific role toons.
If there was a mechanic in place that allowed Freeps to have immediate access to the class of choice, pre-built, pre-leveled, then the argument would be put to rest. But they don't, so the argument and advantage stands.
Going by your own logic, tell me this, why do freeps bother lvling past 40? they can stop there and roll another toon .... in the time it takes to lvl a 65 freep and do a perfect build you can easily roll 3 40th lvl freeps and get them to their perfect build. Thats easily 3x the possibilities of perfect class balance, but you cripple yourself by going to 65.
Please try to fight me in anyway on a greenie. or with a group of greenies. Infact Ill challenge you to a 4vs1 on my warden or a 3vs1 on my LM vs all green rank zero creeps. Then you can tell me they are effective.
Ill take this challange as well, ill fight 4 r0 reavers on my 65 guardian ... if they can get me to half health i will delete my toon.
Please try to fight me in anyway on a greenie. or with a group of greenies. Infact Ill challenge you to a 4vs1 on my warden or a 3vs1 on my LM vs all green rank zero creeps. Then you can tell me they are effective.
Originally Posted by gnomz420
Ill take this challange as well, ill fight 4 r0 reavers on my 65 guardian ... if they can get me to half health i will delete my toon.
Originally Posted by Brongdha
4 rank 0 creeps against my level 60, undergeared warden. Bring it on!
ok. meet my BA, and my 3 BA friends at grams. let's see how well you guys do.
Originally Posted by gnomz420
Going by your own logic, tell me this, why do freeps bother lvling past 40? they can stop there and roll another toon .... in the time it takes to lvl a 65 freep and do a perfect build you can easily roll 3 40th lvl freeps and get them to their perfect build. Thats easily 3x the possibilities of perfect class balance, but you cripple yourself by going to 65.
Except that r0 greenies aren't balanced to be as ineffective as level 40 freeps. Were you assuming they were? The only reason level 40 is a landmark level is that it lets Freeps into the 'moors. A level 40 Freep is still nowhere near as effective as a r0 Creep.
I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.
I have leveled 3 or 4 wargs from r0 on all 1v1's against max level freeps. Granted, I purposefully avoided "good" freeps. But I killed burgs, RK's, LM's, mins, hunters, champs and capts. (don't think i ever fought a guard or warden at r0)
Obviously these were not experianced pvpers. My point is, slither is right in that r0's can be somewhat effective.
Where I think he is wrong, is that he seems to think they are effective enough to replace a higher ranked creep that doesnt quite fit the role.
If im in a 4v4 and we're short on healing, I am not going to log off my r10 spider and on to a r0 WL or defiler, since a r0 will not be a competent enough healer to make up for the loss in another area. (even if we still had "enough" spiders)
Simply put, although a r0 creep can somewhat fullfill a very narrow role, they are so useless in every other way that they can often be as much a hinderance as they are a help. (ex. a greeny allowing a warden to buid HoT's off them, forcing other creeps to use CD's, change their game plans to try and save them or giving defeat responses to capts, champs etc.)
You are misguided. A r0 creep is very effective when used correctly. As I've seen and been involved with many times, r0 raids have taken on freep raids and won before.
I am sure you have seen a raid of experianced players on geenies wipe a raid of idiots, on the other side of that coin, I have been in tribe go greenie nights, experianced players that play well with each other, and having a full raid wiped by 8 experianced freeps, repeatedly. greenies just did not have the dps to surpass the healing or the healing to surpass the FF dps.
I am sure you have seen a raid of experianced players on geenies wipe a raid of idiots, on the other side of that coin, I have been in tribe go greenie nights, experianced players that play well with each other, and having a full raid wiped by 8 experianced freeps, repeatedly. greenies just did not have the dps to surpass the healing or the healing to surpass the FF dps.
I would say that your greenie raid probably didn't play to the class strengths as well as they should of. Just because you roll an outrageous number of greenie creeps does not mean they are going to be able to do anything they want anytime they want. There is still some strategy involved -- primarily knowing what strengths those classes hold, how to maximize those strengths, and where to maximize those strengths.
I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.
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Originally Posted by Perfectlotus
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Unless we assume they have already digged holes here and there over the map for quick escape purposes. Although possible, perhaps not so convincing after all 
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