Thread: PvMP Revamp... My thoughts.

Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk

Tactical can now be mitigated? That is new news to me. However I doubt it is true.

All Minstrel skills deal Light damage except for (Timeless) Echoes of Battle, which can deal Light, Beleriand, Westernesse, or Ancient Dwarf depending on the instrument equipped. All of these damage types can be mitigated by creep corruptions. Oh, and Minstrel melee autoattacks will deal the damage of type of whatever scroll they have equipped on their melee weapon.

(PS: I remember this cute little Hobbit Minstrel with a silly name I power-leveled through the Weather Hills... what ever happened to her...?)

Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk

You saying you want the dps you would do in war speech out of war speech.

Again you completely misunderstand what I have said, two times, as clearly as I know how.

I will try again.

Minstrels need to keep war speech damage as is, for when they are solo.

At no time, did I ever say I wanted to have war speech damage amounts while I am healing.

At no time, did I ever say I wanted to have more damage than I do.

I was saying, that when I am solo, I need more damage than I have when I am healing, and therefore, being able to switch to war speech is very important to the minstrel class.

The original point I was addressing was a call to reduce the amount of damage a minstrel can do.

My position is, and remains, that the DPS a minstrel can do in war speech is necessary for the class to survive (or at least be competitive) when solo, in both PVE and PVMP.

At no time was I calling for an increase in my damage output - to the contrary, I am calling for my damage output to remain the same, in answer to a request made to lower DPS for the minstrel class.

While it's irrelevant to the conversation, I will add that I have played creep, though not extensively, I have a defiler, warg, spider, and black arrow, and they are all rank 4 sigs. I am not pro, but I am not really what you'd consider wet behind the ears either. As to the server I play on, Elendilmir, there are some absolutely pro players on the server on both sides, with great raid, and even multiple raid battles to be had nearly every day during primetime. Again, none of this is relevant but you seemed to be interested in the information.

Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt

1. Change Conjunctions to be effected by Diminishing Returns OR
2. Change Conjunction Immunity to prevent Conjunction Knockdown for the entire duration.

Or, allow CJs to be counterable: FF/Resilience/Snap/Etc.

Lore-Masters:
1. Change Lore-Master power drain to break when target is not in line of sight. Also, maybe change the duration from 16 seconds? This completely drains a Creeps power in a few seconds, and Creeps have no way to counter it aside

Eye-rake? No you don't? CJ-state? Mez?

Burglars:
1. Change Trip to be a stun/knockdown and lower Cooldown to 30-60 seconds? Wargs have 10 second Cooldown on their stuns so.... Just a thought.

Would be overpowering. While Wargs have a in theory 10s CD on their Stun, allowing Trip to be a knockdown would A) Bring back the much loved Double CJ and B) Further the problem with uncounterable CC. Pots do not work on knockdowns, only Resilience and Snap do.

Freeps:

May I ask why there is a request for a general nerf to the only main damage Freeps have? Tactical damage is the main reason why Creeps die. Removing and/or diminishing that would make it even more difficult for Freeps to compete. We already know what happens when a Freep melee, whether BURG/CHAMP/GUARD comes forward to engage a Creep, so without ranged DPS, what is the Freep faction supposed to do?

Warleaders:
1. Rank 8 skill Menacing Roar should get an upgrade at Rank 10 to add a 3-5 second knockdown as well.

2. Remove Rank 7 Command Post and Rank 12 Point-Defense's inductions seeing as how Captains have none.

3. Fix Command Post and Point-Defense to stay with you on the battlefield until you move more than 30 meters away. It's already a pain to place it with a 3 second induction, and now it removes itself randomly even if you are directly next to it.

All buffs to WL? Nothing about their HP/Mitigations/Resistances?

Originally Posted by nuance

Minstrels (even me, occasionally) need more DPS.

Originally Posted by nuance

While I did say that I need more DPS, what I meant was, 'more than I get normally, when I am not in war speech' or to put it more plainly, when I am solo or trying to get back to my raid, I need the DPS that war speech gives me, which is more than I get out of war speech. In other words, I am not saying I need more DPS than I currently have. I did however, say that it would be nice to have more survivability on line with creep healing classes.

Originally Posted by nuance

Again you completely misunderstand what I have said, two times, as clearly as I know how.

I will try again.

Minstrels need to keep war speech damage as is, for when they are solo.

At no time, did I ever say I wanted to have war speech damage amounts while I am healing.

At no time, did I ever say I wanted to have more damage than I do.

I was saying, that when I am solo, I need more damage than I have when I am healing, and therefore, being able to switch to war speech is very important to the minstrel class.

The original point I was addressing was a call to reduce the amount of damage a minstrel can do.

My position is, and remains, that the DPS a minstrel can do in war speech is necessary for the class to survive (or at least be competitive) when solo, in both PVE and PVMP.

At no time was I calling for an increase in my damage output - to the contrary, I am calling for my damage output to remain the same, in answer to a request made to lower DPS for the minstrel class.

While it's irrelevant to the conversation, I will add that I have played creep, though not extensively, I have a defiler, warg, spider, and black arrow, and they are all rank 4 sigs. I am not pro, but I am not really what you'd consider wet behind the ears either. As to the server I play on, Elendilmir, there are some absolutely pro players on the server on both sides, with great raid, and even multiple raid battles to be had nearly every day during primetime. Again, none of this is relevant but you seemed to be interested in the information.

The second quote I posted showed you to be a little confused because You did state you wanted/needed more dps or in words you might understand, more damage than you do. Honestly though, minstrel dps is more than fine at the moment, you saying you want more for when you are solo is just the same as saying you just simply want more dps. Unless there will be a debuff on your dps while you're in a raid but that still doesn't change the fact that minstrels solo in big fights just like any class.

You just seem like another person playing a class that is over powered wanting more at their disposal. Yes your survivability can be lacking but doesn't change the fact that your dps is still there. When minstrels can and have crit me for just about 1.5k + on 3 skills consecutively I do not think they should get a buff in that department even if its for soloing purposes. If you run solo in moors you are on your own. That is the point of being solo correct? To fend for yourself? The way I see it, if you are solo you have no real reason to complain about pvp because it isn't meant to be a solo area. It is amazing how you state in this post things like, "At no time, did I ever say I wanted to have more damage than I do." and "At no time was I calling for an increase in my damage output - to the contrary, I am calling for my damage output to remain the same, in answer to a request made to lower DPS for the minstrel class." when you did just that in previous posts. Who are you trying to convince?

Elendilmir, well there in lies your problem. That server has more creeps than freeps correct? And most people are solo correct? That explains why you die as much as you seem to claim to and this would explain why you would want more dps while solo. You said a few times that I misunderstood what you have said, but I understand you completely now.

Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

All Minstrel skills deal Light damage except for (Timeless) Echoes of Battle, which can deal Light, Beleriand, Westernesse, or Ancient Dwarf depending on the instrument equipped. All of these damage types can be mitigated by creep corruptions. Oh, and Minstrel melee autoattacks will deal the damage of type of whatever scroll they have equipped on their melee weapon.

(PS: I remember this cute little Hobbit Minstrel with a silly name I power-leveled through the Weather Hills... what ever happened to her...?)

As far as I know and from what I remember, tactical cannot be mitigated. Yes we COULD slot in light mitigation corruptions but that trade off isn't worth it. But in any case a couple corruptions will not save the creep against minstrel dps. I can see what point you were going for here but it does not have merit.

Ummm I deleted it? Thought that was made obvious especially since I have a new one.

Originally Posted by bprorsum

Or, allow CJs to be counterable: FF/Resilience/Snap/Etc.

Want to protect your stars huh?

Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk

Want to protect your stars huh?

That's exactly what I was thinking hah

Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk

Want to protect your stars huh?

Since I've been PvPing through CJ-States, I don't need any more assistance to kill and not be killed.

But you're right, even though you have to be one of the biggest whiners I've seen on your server when it comes to dying, I'm clearly worried only about FF and I'm clearly the only one that thinks CC should have a counter, which includes class skills.

You got me, Pillow.

Originally Posted by bprorsum

Since I've been PvPing through CJ-States, I don't need any more assistance to kill and not be killed.

But you're right, even though you have to be one of the biggest whiners I've seen on your server when it comes to dying, I'm clearly worried only about FF and I'm clearly the only one that thinks CC should have a counter, which includes class skills.

You got me, Pillow.

I don't whine about dying, I 'whine' about how people choose to play at times. My warg has like 1800-1900 deaths, quite a bit. Champ has over 2k. If people are sitting back waiting for a smaller force to charge out at them because they want to farm yeah I am going to complain about it.

If my burg was my main I would probably be clearly worried about FF as well. Why wouldn't I be? Big heal, +50% evade, breaks cj. Makes holding onto stars so much easier but I am sure you are more than aware of that.

Originally Posted by DwarfWarlord

So then you would be fine with Wargs having a counter to Burg CJs ?

LOL as if ....

I am going to guess he wouldn't be fine but he might surprise me.

Originally Posted by DwarfWarlord

So then you would be fine with Wargs having a counter to Burg CJs ?

LOL as if ....

So, you don't want me to answer?

Originally Posted by DwarfWarlord

So then you would be fine with Wargs having a counter to Burg CJs ?

LOL as if ....

What's the counter to warg CJ's? Not rhetoric, obviously.

Originally Posted by zeppelincobalt

2Defilers:
1. I Noticed That All The Debuffs Defilers Get Seem A Bit Powerful. Maybe Lower The Durations And/or Extend The Cooldowns?

Defiler debuffs are a bit powerful...how? You seem like you can recognize that all classes have advantages with certain skill/abilities over others but are not deemed over-powered. In which ways do the debuffs cross that line?

You know what debuff I find to be over-powered? That R3(or R2?) debuff banner WLs have. I'd argue it is the most powerful debuff out in the Moors for either side.

I have tried numerous times to explain this to you. You took my first quote out of context, completely. I have tried two times to explain this. You are clearly either unwilling, or incapable of understanding the point that I was making.

One more time, and finally: The OP was calling for a nerf to minstrel DPS. I responded to state that minstrels need the additional DPS they get from War Speech, and I provided situational rationale in support of this (the solo minstrel trying to get back to the raid).

At no time, anywhere in this thread have I asked for a buff to DPS, or additional DPS over what a minstrel can currently do.

I believe I have clearly stated my position enough times, and have remained consistent. Clearly I am not able to communicate effectively with you, so I guess it's time for me to stop trying.

I lol'd at the people who said what said khronus was biased... I have played both sides almost evenly and i can tell you that most of what he wrote is not completely biased.

What CJ dr?
Oh! Thats right, can't believe i forgot, its the one that only works after you are dead.

Some people also don't realize that THERE IS A PVMP BUFF GIVEN TO FREEPS WHICH CAN GIVE CHANGES TO THEIR SKILLS(and/or weapons Armour and jewelry)
which is only (--->)if(<---) the buff is put on them.

Originally Posted by bprorsum

Tactical damage is the main reason why Creeps die.?

That's because there are a lot of people that rolled tactical classes.

As far as balance goes, only thing that needs to be changed is CJs IMO, need to share the same immunity and DR as stuns and be curable by pots...

Otherwise, add new features to the moors or make a new region and give better rewards for freepside.

Originally Posted by TheWhiteHawk

Want to protect your stars huh?

Pretty sad, you jump at the chance to bash someones perfectly legitimate and balanced solution to the most deterring and broken element of PvMP, simply because he plays a burg. You conveniently forget to mention his disapproval of changing trip to knockdowns and lower CD, which would make burgs even stronger.

It's no wonder Turbine ignores PvMP, every thread on these forums turns into these bull**** petty contests between creeps and freeps who refuse to let up an inch, regardless of the actual balance and fairness of the changes proposed.

Originally Posted by ZeppelinCobalt

If Turbine isn't planning on giving us a PvP Expansion/map etc, I figured maybe they could make a few improvements here or there...

A while back someone had asked for a new tree. I don't think we got one. You are asking for a lot more than a tree.

As for lowering WS damage, you can't be serious. Minstrels are one of the squishiest classes in the moors and you want to lower their damage output? Really??

/baffled

Interestingly I see you didn't mention RKs. Rks can do more consistent damage then minstrels and can heal considerably well. I'm curious as to why they remained untouched in your list of suggestions.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Some people also don't realize that THERE IS A PVMP BUFF GIVEN TO FREEPS WHICH CAN GIVE CHANGES TO THEIR SKILLS(and/or weapons Armour and jewelry) which is only (--->)if(<---) the buff is put on them. That's because there are a lot of people that rolled tactical classes.

Are you talking about the DP buffs? In that case, I do like the OOC regen buff but most of the DP buffs really don't make a noticable difference in your toons survivalbility or damage output.

What i'd like to see is an increase in freep mitigations and purchasable skills made available as a freep advances in rank. Afterall, creeps get nice rewards from killing freeps but freeps get nothing. The purchaseable skills could be specific to your class and be seen as a way to upgrade your current skills. I don't know enough about creeps to make any substantial suggestions but I think just increasing freep mitiagations would do a lot to improve play.

[QUOTE=couillon;4605437]Are you talking about the DP buffs? QUOTE]

Hes talking about the moors buff that makes hunters DF ooc only and takes away fervors -30% inc healing but currently does nothing else. It can do alot to bring balance but as of yet , at least that I know of, has not been used to do such. Essentially what it does is make it so devs no longer *have* to nerf/tweak freeps in both pve and pvp, they can do it in just pvp. IMO it has alot of potential, can only hope that at some point it gets heavy use. :P

ahhh, ok. I don't have a high level hunter or champ so I wasn't aware of those buffs.

Originally Posted by couillon

ahhh, ok. I don't have a high level hunter or champ so I wasn't aware of those buffs.

See :P some people aren't even aware of this awesometastic mechanic, thats how little used it is *.*. sadfaceofsadness