thanks for that. as you say whatever works for each group.
i've just been unconvinced that some of what we think is just random nature of encounter is that and rather its lack of understanding of mechanics of durchests attacks.
though i do think with durchest 2.0 it is harder to make our own luck so to speak... as evidence by the fact many group previously farming it now wipe more frequently.
as frustrating as it can be at times, i guess turbine has achieved the goal of making a raid that is so brutal it will take longer than any other to master.
as frustrating as it can be at times, i guess turbine has achieved the goal of making a raid that is so brutal it will take longer than any other to master.
I feel that the only thing Turbine has achieved is making a raid that more and more makes people just not care. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever to change the first boss fight....none..... It did not make the encounter more interesting, or more exciting....it did not balance out previous issues people had, nor did it make the raid as a whole more accessible to less hardcore raid groups. Neither did it make it more "brutal". It just made it more annoying, more tedious and more likely to turn people off raiding.
And the most amazing thing? No comment from Turbine. No reason given for the changes, no explanation or comment about the whole tactical resist mess....nothing. Instead they just let people argue it out on the forums....trying to guess at what Turbine were thinking. Just a little, a tiny scrap of interest from the Devs would go a long way to helping us all understand all the various issues plaguing end game at the moment.
In all fairness, Turbine really can't win. I mean, I saw a gob of people complaining that the Watcher was still too challenging at level 65. Like they thought the armor would just be handed out at the door? I for one, feel that Durchest and Twins right now are about "just right". Can't autopilot, but you'll be rewarded for proper execution. I think the Twins fight is one of the best 12-man encounters ever...
I agree that there should have been some hint of changes in the patch notes, but now it's too late. Any dev coming out to address it at this point is a big honkin' target. I also don't know why they felt the need to make the changes they did, yet leave known issues alone. Makes you feel like they don't listen to us, huh?
I agree that the easy modes should be more attainable by more people, but challenge modes are supposed to be.....challenging.
My kin is not "hardcore". We're never the first to do anything on our server. Or the second....usually not the third even. We have a lot of real good players, but we're old and we can't meet the time commit to be first at anything (hehe). Even so, we had no trouble getting Durchest and Twins HM's back to farm after the last patch. We had a 1-2 week hiccup, talked it over, addressed some issues and are back to one and done. There is nothing all that different about the first 2 fights.
If it's to the point where people are complaining that resists make them wipe on bosses 1 or 2 now, they probably didn't have a chance in the first place. Sure, you can get unlucky with them on any given run, but it's not going to cause repeated wipes. No way. It's an excuse, sorry.
They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.... we sure there isn't some insanity at work here? The main thing is that people should be seeing progress. If you aren't seeing progress, you need to rework your strat.
There is some real good info in this thread that should give you everything you need to beat Durchest HM. The execution is up to you. I can safely say there is little-to-no luck involved in winning either of the first 2 boss fights. It's all execution. If you're wiping at the same point every time.....well.....you're doing it wrong, right? Look at what is causing that wipe and prevent it from being possible. Sounds obvious, but people lose sight of things when they have frustrated expectations.
Yeah, it might be fair to blame Turbine for some of that. But even so, if they had put it in the patch notes, what would be different now? They may have saved some face, but it wouldn't change a single other thing. People would still be P.O.'d and wiping and they could rag on a blue name. Is that better? It's not like it took more than one trip in there to see things were different. If you kept going back, that's your fault.
well yeah i dont care about patch notes, thats the past.
but there is no excuse for total silence we see right now.
as i've said the goal should have been that 1-3 normal mode and trash was very doable by majority of raiding groups with minimal wipes once they know strats.
at the moment its 6 encounter options with 4 of them plus trash being too brutal for many raiders.
and too brutal can just mean chance to wipe is very high which hinders overall progress.
several wipes that seem pretty much unavoidable throw serious spanner in works of progress.
i disagree that we saw anywhere near the level of complaints about watcher at L65 or DN difficulty than we see with BG.
Lots of complaints about watcher2.0 and that was changed.
Sure, I think BG is a tedious mess, that is not "The most brutal raid", but rather "The raid that sucks all the fun out of raiding". And yes, I am completely confused by the fact that the Dev's seem hell bent on fiddling with things that don't need fiddling with, whilst bugs remain untouched for months.
But it is what it is. What really annoys me is the silence from the Dev's. There is no "we are looking into that." or "these changes were made because...." That's just frustrating, and poor customer relations.
But I think it is pretty obvious that they have moved on from this raid cluster, and we can continue to post again and again on the forums with no response. Fingers crossed that they at least read all the concerns and keep them in mind when designing the next raid cluster - but to be truthful, I doubt it (hope to be pleasantly surprised! )
Are those struggling in this fight running without a burglar? We wiped repeatedly on durchest this week until we got a little lucky on our last run, and the only thing I can really see that we're missing from an ideal setup was a burg. We even tried the assistant method with little luck (no matter how long we waited the third person wasn't picking up the threat debuff)
That lovely little disable buff of theirs would hopefully drop his spike damage down to something that I can live through, but on monday I got 2-shotted twice and 3-shotted once, each far too quickly to have any reasonable chance at getting any decent sized heals in. We used to find twins HM harder than durchest, but now I'd have to say that's been swapped around such that twins is both easier and far more enjoyable than either durchest EM or HM.
This was just after the 5th add went down so he had +175% melee, but before HM so I still would have had ~+2 hope.
We used to find twins HM harder than durchest, but now I'd have to say that's been swapped around such that twins is both easier and far more enjoyable than either durchest EM or HM.
yeah. brg lm 2rk 2cpt is a must for durchest HM imo unless your group finds the encounter easy in which case more class flexibility.
I'm willing to bet that the reason you're getting hit that hard isn't because you don't have a burg, it's because your LM didn't have a Sign of Power:See all Ends on the boss. I believe that it's an extremely overlooked debuff.
I'm not going to get in to a debate about how an LM should trait, but I believe that Ancient Master is a must for this fight. The twins (and even the LT) probably don't require AM, but Durchest does.
I believe that an LM with a fully-leveled up SOP durations legacy and AM-traited (w/capstone) will keep you from being one-shot regardless of Disable. When See All Ends drops (or isnt used...), his chances to crit increase by nearly double. See All Ends debuffs his critical chance by -2080, which is approximately 8%. Assuming a worst-case 15% crit chance, you're effectively halving his ability to crit at all, and the chances of him critting twice in a row are extremely small - which can give your healers a chance to react to a big hit.
Can he still two-shot if SOP:SAE is up? Probably. I haven't seen it, however, in the dozens of hard-mode runs I've been a part of. It's only when he doesn't have SOP:SAE that things get crazy. I have seen a tank take a crit and get immediately take a "Boot to the Face" directly afterward, but that's very rare.
All of that said, a burg's disable is certainly helpful - but I believe an LM to be invaluable.
Checked the screeny from a few secs after I died and its definitely up. Been running with our LM since the rift and I trust him when he says that the debuff was on him when I got two-shotted. It's possible that it was down the exact moment I was killed, but if its happening multiple times in a night then that pretty much wipes out that idea.
Worrying part is that 4.5k isn't even the biggest crit that I've seen - have a few in the logs for ~5.6k, and that's with maxed melee defence, heavy shield, glory, melee crit defence relics etc. Cleave is something that we understand and can create tactics to deal with, but these massive melee hits just make it complete luck. If we can get near the end of the fight we're generally okay since I just pop invincible for the last minute that I have to tank him, but between around the 5th add and the last one it's just a complete crapshoot.
Checked the screeny from a few secs after I died and its definitely up. Been running with our LM since the rift and I trust him when he says that the debuff was on him when I got two-shotted. It's possible that it was down the exact moment I was killed, but if its happening multiple times in a night then that pretty much wipes out that idea.
Worrying part is that 4.5k isn't even the biggest crit that I've seen - have a few in the logs for ~5.6k, and that's with maxed melee defence, heavy shield, glory, melee crit defence relics etc. Cleave is something that we understand and can create tactics to deal with, but these massive melee hits just make it complete luck. If we can get near the end of the fight we're generally okay since I just pop invincible for the last minute that I have to tank him, but between around the 5th add and the last one it's just a complete crapshoot.
Champ tanking is definitely difficult, mostly just because of the size of champion morale pools (On average, at least 1k below a equally geared guard). With a champ tanking, a LM + a burg is just shy of crucial. DP morale & hope will help you significantly when champ tanking is your only option.
Don't forget improved tale of warding. Do I usually use it? No, but every little bit helps. Should give you another 5-6% common mit and bring you right up to the cap. In the case of spike damage, that 5-6% FAR outweighs the benefits of anything else your minstrel can be traiting.
we definitely see our warden and champ offtank go much lower in morale than guard, even die from time to time.
luck does have an impact, perhaps there is a group out there that beats durchest HM first try every time but for the rest of us need to be prepared for things to go wrong... especially if you cant take in your ideal class makeup.
So it seems we have Durchest HM back on farm. We had been running w/ no LM for quite some time due to our primary raiding LM being out of raiding for a few months, and we've been short a raiding cappy who's been taking some time off so I couldn't bring my LM... But I digress...
We had 1 HM kill since the patch before tonight and that was w/ 2 burgs. We had been struggling w/ big hits during the last 1-2 adds. Tonight we bring in an LM and it was 1 and done. Not only was it 1 and done, but neither tank ever got below half health. In fact I don't even think they got below 2/3 at any point. It almost seemed boring other than the on edge feeling I had because of how many wipes near the end we had sustained in the past.
My suggestion would be to not attempt HM unless you have both a LM and a burg. I'm not saying it's an "auto-win", but if your group has put time in to learn the strat but haven't had an ideal group make up then this should be the tipping point for you.
Of course we won't know until next week whether or not it's truly on farm, but I feel very confidant after tonight.
Very reminiscent of watcher 2 really, where if you didn't have all possible debuffs on him it was just a matter of time before someone gets killed. We've done it once post-patch without a burg, but I think that was more divine intervention rather than skill on our part.
i'd say you have it on farm. wipes likely only to happen due to DNFTL missing if you continue to execute well and have good class makeup.
We likely won't have a problem w/ the DNFTL since we get him VERY low before pulling/killing the last add (lightning). Last night we cut it a bit too close w/ him being at 652 morale when the last add was still up and the tanks had to stop hitting him! lol! We're going to making sure next time that no bleeds go on him before or during the last add and that the tanks really take it easy while everyone else is killing that add. We usually save OBS for Durchest after the last add dies cuz we like to leave him around 5k, but I just threw it on the add last night.
Worrying part is that 4.5k isn't even the biggest crit that I've seen - have a few in the logs for ~5.6k, and that's with maxed melee defence, heavy shield, glory, melee crit defence relics etc.
The question is WHY are you getting DMAs with such variance. Either your debuffing or corruption removal is not consistent. You should be taking DMAs around 3K if he is debuffed and has no corruptions.
The question is WHY are you getting DMAs with such variance. Either your debuffing or corruption removal is not consistent. You should be taking DMAs around 3K if he is debuffed and has no corruptions.
How many times does it have to be stated that DMA is NOT effected by corruptions before people listen?
I'm willing to bet that the reason you're getting hit that hard isn't because you don't have a burg, it's because your LM didn't have a Sign of Power:See all Ends on the boss. I believe that it's an extremely overlooked debuff.
...
See All Ends debuffs his critical chance by -2080, which is approximately 8%. Assuming a worst-case 15% crit chance, you're effectively halving his ability to crit at all, and the chances of him critting twice in a row are extremely small - which can give your healers a chance to react to a big hit.
Definitely one not to overlook. With an AM traited LM keeping this up last night, coupled with 2,840 melee crit def of my own (Malledhrim Warden's shield + 2x T9 crit def relics) and Disable on Durchest, my incoming damage was quite steady and predictable last night. I got crit maybe once the whole fight, and we were doing tank + assistants strat, so he was on me the whole time after the first minute or so.
This is why I value Melee Crit Defence over straight Melee Defence now - the spike damage is what does you in.
How many times does it have to be stated that DMA is NOT effected by corruptions before people listen?
Isn't it funny how people freak out about corruptions? The corruptions in this fight are not important at all, and are easily handled by the tanks and a couple burst removals from LMs, RKs, or even burgs. All the corruptions do in this fight is increase his tactical damage (which is a total of 3 attacks throughout a full Hard-Mode run) and his damage taken.
I even hear people traiting/equipping full tactical defense gear for this fight - which makes me laugh.
Envoyé par Dalthyn
Definitely one not to overlook. With an AM traited LM keeping this up last night, coupled with 2,840 melee crit def of my own (Malledhrim Warden's shield + 2x T9 crit def relics) and Disable on Durchest, my incoming damage was quite steady and predictable last night. I got crit maybe once the whole fight, and we were doing tank + assistants strat, so he was on me the whole time after the first minute or so.
This is why I value Melee Crit Defence over straight Melee Defence now - the spike damage is what does you in.
Well-said. I've warden-tanked this before as well, and Crit Defense is what makes the difference. I wouldn't say it's more valuable overall, but it certainly is for this fight.
How many times does it have to be stated that DMA is NOT effected by corruptions before people listen?
Until its backed up by more than reading the short corruption description that Turbine is always so accurate with. Its possible I missed something, but I have not seen any testing of logging DMAs and letting corruptions build up. What I do know is that when he is debuffed and corruption removal is happening I get 3Kish DMAs. When things hit the fan and there are lots of corruptions is when I see the 5-6K DMAs. I admit it is possible that is because the debuffs are coincidentally not happening at the same time. Why take the risk and let the debuffs build?
Until its backed up by more than reading the short corruption description that Turbine is always so accurate with. Its possible I missed something, but I have not seen any testing of logging DMAs and letting corruptions build up. What I do know is that when he is debuffed and corruption removal is happening I get 3Kish DMAs. When things hit the fan and there are lots of corruptions is when I see the 5-6K DMAs. I admit it is possible that is because the debuffs are coincidentally not happening at the same time. Why take the risk and let the debuffs build?
I never said you should "take the risk and let the debuffs build." In fact if you are falling behind on corruptions in this fight it's probably an indication that your group just isn't executing well, but that isn't what the discussion is here. I have seen the 5-6k DMAs w/ ZERO corruptions but we had no LM to keep SOP:SAE up. I'm almost 100% certain that when DMA hits for over 5.5k it's a devastating critical hit and the ones for 4-5k are regular crits while the 3-3.5k hits are normal hits with this skill.
Since my kin had to work very hard post patch to get this back on farm (~20 wipes) I have A LOT of experience with the fight and have analyzed it to DEATH (no pun intended)! The big crits are absolutely due to lack of debuffing, and not in any way shape or form tied to corruptions. You of course still should be removing corruptions, but it will not effect your incoming damage w/ all but 3 of his attacks during the entire HM fight (2 fire attacks and 1 lightning attack).
I find the corruption tool-tip to be succinct and accurate. The corruptions do not increase the damage anyone in the raid takes other than the few tactical attacks he tosses out. I don't see the The corruptions do two things - increase Durchest's tactical damage, and decrease his incoming damage.
I've never parsed the fight, but the word from my healers is good enough - his corruptions do not increase the amount of melee damage taken by the tanks.
If there's more to the corruptions than what myself and others have pointed out, it's something that many people who've ran the fight in hard-mode countless times have missed. I'd stop worrying about what you think they *might* do, and focus on what they *actually* do.
I have seen the 5-6k DMAs w/ ZERO corruptions but we had no LM to keep SOP:SAE up. I'm almost 100% certain that when DMA hits for over 5.5k it's a devastating critical hit and the ones for 4-5k are regular crits while the 3-3.5k hits are normal hits with this skill.
Since my kin had to work very hard post patch to get this back on farm (~20 wipes) I have A LOT of experience with the fight and have analyzed it to DEATH (no pun intended)! The big crits are absolutely due to lack of debuffing, and not in any way shape or form tied to corruptions.
Good enough for me.
You may well be right about the damage being normal/crit/devastate. Stupid of turbine to name the attack DMA so it sounds like its devastating every time it hits.
So after everything I read here and learned and after taking a break for everyone in my Core Group to work on some things that was recomended here, we went into BG last night and took down Durchest Hard Mode 1st try. So for that, I thank everyone. We also found that the pulls to the twins were alot easier too. Hopefully that means we did not just have a lucky night...
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We have a lot of real good players, but we're old and we can't meet the time commit to be first at anything (hehe). Even so, we had no trouble getting Durchest and Twins HM's back to farm after the last patch. We had a 1-2 week hiccup, talked it over, addressed some issues and are back to one and done. There is nothing all that different about the first 2 fights. 
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