Thread: Duo skirmishes...

Originally Posted by Kyrv

That's very helpful, although at level 30 you have so many to choose from, it's hard to pick just one.

LOL + Rep. Gildhur and Mavery just start to blend together.

Originally Posted by Zetor_42

Just adding another anecdotal data point -- two of my kinmates (level 32 LM / champion, low level herbalist / bannerguard soldiers) have also had massive trouble with duos, especially Tuckborough; they had to downlevel it by 4 to prevail, and they died so many times they basically exchanged silver for skirmish marks (the exchange rate isn't as good as ya might think :P)..

Did they happen to give any details that you might share as to why they were having trouble with this particular skirmish? I ask because just for fun at level 40, I created a level 35 Duo version of this skirmish and solo'd it. The priestess LTs were pretty challenging, and having the boss with 2 Zealots of Pain was challenging, but the rest of it wasn't much harder then a solo Skirmish -- and I would think two players would breeze through it even done at on-level. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I just haven't seen any details given as to why this Skirmish is causing people problems.

Mmhmm.

I don't have any details (I only got the 'after action' report... timezones, bah humbug!), but I do know that they tried duo'ing "thievery and mischief" on their mains as well [l48 burglar+minstrel], with similar results. My point was that the small fellowship version of Tuckborough was basically identical to the duo version, except that with the addition of a 3rd person it went a LOT smoother, faster and it was more rewarding (not to mention it was even-level unlike the duo attempts). Same with the solo version... easier, faster, more rewarding than a duo. Just doesn't sound right. (reiterating -- in all cases very low level soldiers were used, and we all have average gear from questing)

I know you didn't say it, but since it was mentioned in this thread before, I'll say that I'm pretty sure them having trouble with the duo was not an 'omg noobs l2p' issue; we never had any problems with other non-skirmish content, even when we did fornost as an underleveled 4-man group. The only brick wall we hit was the 4 of us doing thievery and mischief at level 48 without a tank and with level 1 soldiers right after coming back to the game... as our first skirmish ever. You can guess the outcome. :P (actually it didn't go bad at all until we hit the last encounter consisting of 3 unkitable unmezzable bosses in a tiny area; one of the bosses was a healer too)


-- Z.

So just to add onto how unrealistic duos are...

I used my level 43 guardian and buddied with a 41 champ. The skirmish was set to level 41, tier I. Break the siege of Gondamon.

The fights up to the general were okay. The Priestess of Flame liuetenant spawned twice and I had to pop endurance of stone to survive. My buddy died the first time. The second was on the final assault and we let Mathi deal with her. Her flames took me, a guardian with ~3500 morale, to under 500 in just a few seconds.

When we got to the general with me not dying and my champ friend dying twice (one was a lag issue, the other was the priestess of flame) we saw two elite masters. 10,000+ morale. Mathi had around 3,600. Needless to say I don't think we lowered either of their morale below 8,000.





lolwat?

We tried once more with nearly the same scenario. Instead of doing a level 41 skirmish was lowered it to 37. The mobs were simple, we blew through them. The Lieutenants were mostly regular solo ones except for two Frigid Squalls. The first time it appeared it downed the NPC guard at the west gate like a hot knife though button even though it wasn't focusing on her. Its AoE aura killed her.

The second time the Frigid Squall showed up we tagged it and killed it away from NPCs without a problem.

The general and drake were still elite masters but this time only had 8,000 morale each. We BARELY downed them both, had to use cooldowns, and Mathi tanked the general. He survived with around 500 morale.

Originally Posted by ZeratulDarkheart

The first time it appeared it downed the NPC guard at the west gate like a hot knife though button even though it wasn't focusing on her. Its AoE aura killed her.

Was it the Loremaster NPC? I've only been playing again for about a week or so, but I've been doing skirmishes every day and I just groan when I see that I got Loremaster trainer as one of the Gondamon defenders (when I see her, she's *always* been assigned to West gate for me).

She's next to useless; has no pet, uses no abilities, and runs in and smacks things impotently with her staff. Once I saw her die to a Weak mob. Not even a Hale. A Weak. If she charges a group before I respond to it, she folds like a card table.

I have also seen her die to the AOE aura, which reaaaaally aggravated me.

Originally Posted by cwswim03

Knock it off. Really. Your elitist attitude is getting on my nerves. Some of the duo skirmishes are bugged. They are the small fellowship version instead. I went into a duo TRiT with a captain on my RK(On a level 37). We got our butts handed to us repeatedly. Are you going to tell me that my playstyle is wrong, that I'm a bad player, that we suck? Cause that would be so so amusing. On one of the counter assaults, we got 10 adds plus a lieutenant. And about half were elites. Is that duo sized? Sure... sure. Amusing to hear.

"It's not a problem for me, therefore it's not a problem for anyone. I can't look past the experience that is my own." /WIN

It would be acceptable, I guess, if he was as good as he talks. The elitist attitude is clearly making up for something...

Thought I'd add some results from a recent run.

Most of the duo skirms I've been running up till now have been on my 65 LM and my wifes 65 mini. While harder than solo, most of the duo's have been very manageable. I've also got a high level herbalist and my wife is sporting a high level protector.

We have also been levelling a pair of captains. We are 48 and 47 now and decided to run Trouble in Tuck tier 1 level 48 duo. I have solo'd this one no problem at 47 and used the points to further upgrade my sage. Well, this one was just way too hard compared to solo. I'm assuming that this one is indeed one of the bugged duo skirms because the difficulty was way overboard.

Now, with a lot of work on strategy, some serious retraiting, and getting our soldiers ranked higher and I'm sure we could pull this off. But in comparing difficulty between solo, duo, and trio - I'd say the duo version was at least 5x as hard as solo or trio. I've even ran several 6-man versions of this skirm with kin and while difficult, still very doable.

Up until now, I've been unable to see the steep increase in difficulty because in my usual duo I have access to a lot of CC, and typically keep the fight under control. But on my captain with no CC getting up to 10 mobs plus a LT seems a little steep for a tier 1 duo skirm. Since I have seen references to this being bugged will just skip this one at duo unless looking for a challenge as it is way out of whack. Could see how this could be very demoralizing for a casual player on their mains having this kind of trouble.

As a side note, we have run several other duo's on our captains sucessfully. And while the duo's are more difficult than solo, being able to run a skirm with my wife rather than splitting into two solo runs is a lot more fun.

In general though, it seems they need to scale these tier 1 duo skirms down a bit as they feel closer to tier 2 solo in difficulty IMO.

Originally Posted by Analog-Man

But on my captain with no CC getting up to 10 mobs plus a LT seems a little steep for a tier 1 duo skirm.

You shouldn't even get 10 mobs in a 3-man or 6-man skirmish. There are many places in Tuckborough where if you're not careful you can pull two or three groups of mobs at a time. Either something was bugged or you got a bad pull. In either case, it says nothing about the intended difficulty of the instance.

Originally Posted by gildhur

Either something was bugged or you got a bad pull. In either case, it says nothing about the intended difficulty of the instance.

Intended difficulty != reality of it. I have gotten 8 mobs in a solo skirmish counter attack. And 10 mobs in a duo skirmish counter attack. Way too many in other words. It may and probably is bugged. But.... it's annoying that it is that way. A lot of things in skirmishes are still broken. A work in progress I guess. I just wish it would progress a little faster.

I do know this skirm and know how to control the pulls. Run it routinely solo and many times in 3 and 6 man versions. This was a single counter attack, with us stationary fighting at the flag. Counter attack consisted of 6 gobbs, the Falconer LT, and all his summoned falcons. So total of 9 - 10 mobs. My health dropped so fast on the initial swarm I was at half health in about 5 seconds and the wife had to go full time healing. No CC, plus limited AOE and couldn't get the anything killed before I dropped from the mass of MOBS pounding on me. Didn't have last stand as the previous counter attack of similar difficulty but easier LT forced me to burn it.

Could we beat it if we kept trying? Yes. But comparing relative difficulty between solo and duo and they are light years apart on this skirmish. Class makeup obviously comes in to play here as like I said on my LM, mini combo it was a piece of cake. But then AOE roots, mezzing LT, and picking off mobs one by one can make an encounter that is tough for some combos easy for others.

But rather than getting side-tracked nit-picking over exact number of mobs, I still maintain that how ever many it actually was was too many.

I agree that the Falconer without CC is extremely difficult to handle. Especially if there a few other adds.

I can deal with this guy as a Burg, but would not try it with a Hunter.

I did several of the Dous with my tank and a captain. They were fun and only in a couple of cases were we really in danger of losing the fight. One time the captian got one shotted by a LT in Siege. Since it was a new LT I did not really have time to search and see what happened.

The nice thing is you do get the Small Fellowship LTs which opens up a whole bunch of new slayer deed.

I'm a little late to the party, but add my friend and I to the "holy **** this is too hard" list. We tried a level 46 Thievery and Mischief duo, as a 46 champ and 50 hun****. She's got an herbalist, I (the hunter) have a protector. I think hers is like level 40 equivalent, my protector is 48 equivalent on level and all of his slotted skills.

We died a few times getting the hang of things (and fighting a falconer plus three sig adds), then couldn't beat the bosses. Couldn't even come close. Tried trapping one and killing the other. No good. Tried having my protector tank one while we killed the other. No good. Tried splitting them between us. No good. Tried kiting -- can't because of the run debuff. Tried all of these things in both configurations (trapping/tanking/whatever Balak and Blogstaz). No good.

Doesn't look like a fix is on the way, either. :|

Originally Posted by Porlock

I'm a little late to the party, but add my friend and I to the "holy **** this is too hard" list. We tried a level 46 Thievery and Mischief duo, as a 46 champ and 50 hun****. She's got an herbalist, I (the hunter) have a protector. I think hers is like level 40 equivalent, my protector is 48 equivalent on level and all of his slotted skills.

Really? My wife and I (Hunter/Champ) duo'd Defense of the Prancing Pony with no problems at all. Protector/Bannerguard soldiers, almost no healing whatsoever. Maybe T&M is harder, dunno. Granted, we were 65, not 46-50.

Originally Posted by Porlock

I'm a little late to the party, but add my friend and I to the "holy **** this is too hard" list. We tried a level 46 Thievery and Mischief duo, as a 46 champ and 50 hun****. She's got an herbalist, I (the hunter) have a protector. I think hers is like level 40 equivalent, my protector is 48 equivalent on level and all of his slotted skills.

We died a few times getting the hang of things (and fighting a falconer plus three sig adds), then couldn't beat the bosses. Couldn't even come close. Tried trapping one and killing the other. No good. Tried having my protector tank one while we killed the other. No good. Tried splitting them between us. No good. Tried kiting -- can't because of the run debuff. Tried all of these things in both configurations (trapping/tanking/whatever Balak and Blogstaz). No good.

Doesn't look like a fix is on the way, either. :|

What classes you take into a DUO make a huge difference.
With a Burg (Herbalist), I regularly solo the T&M Duo.
CC is critical for those final bosses.

Originally Posted by Boraxxe

What classes you take into a DUO make a huge difference.
With a Burg (Herbalist), I regularly solo the T&M Duo.
CC is critical for those final bosses.

I went against the T&M Duo with an RK and hunter. Protector and bannerguard helpers. I looked at it with their 12k health (we were 47 and 46 respective. my protector was rank 5 at level 47 with level 50 skills and training). I tried to heal this, but it's an utter joke. The Protector is all but useless as a protector. It was FAR FAR easier to heal the hunter than the protector! Still, with two elite masters on us, and no CC (we trapped one boss for a short while), we were dead pretty quick, and couldn't figure out a way to do this. As far as I'm concerned, it's either impossible or insanely difficult for some class combos. If I had a guard with me, I might have been able to heal him through that. MAYBE.

I'm giving up even trying duos from now on. This is not a first time experience for me. I've tried several other duos, and while they have been doable, they were still insanely difficult. I have a much easier time doing solo Tier IIs.

Originally Posted by Greenasp

I went against the T&M Duo with an RK and hunter. Protector and bannerguard helpers. I looked at it with their 12k health (we were 47 and 46 respective. my protector was rank 5 at level 47 with level 50 skills and training). I tried to heal this, but it's an utter joke. The Protector is all but useless as a protector. It was FAR FAR easier to heal the hunter than the protector! Still, with two elite masters on us, and no CC (we trapped one boss for a short while), we were dead pretty quick, and couldn't figure out a way to do this. As far as I'm concerned, it's either impossible or insanely difficult for some class combos. If I had a guard with me, I might have been able to heal him through that. MAYBE.

I'm giving up even trying duos from now on. This is not a first time experience for me. I've tried several other duos, and while they have been doable, they were still insanely difficult. I have a much easier time doing solo Tier IIs.

Wow. That's almost exactly the combination my husband and I took at close to the same levels/soldier levels as well. Except I had the protector & he had an herbalist. We still had the same outcome at the end - way too hard. We've tried it a couple levels lower, still no go. After I forget how many deaths we gave up on this one as well =/

I don't want them to make duos too easy but in this particular case, iirc, you don't get the second boss in the solo - honestly I think they need to do that with duos here as well. That was the only part we truly had trouble with (handling the two bosses).

Originally Posted by Vilost

Wow. That's almost exactly the combination my husband and I took at close to the same levels/soldier levels as well. Except I had the protector & he had an herbalist. We still had the same outcome at the end - way too hard. We've tried it a couple levels lower, still no go. After I forget how many deaths we gave up on this one as well =/

I don't want them to make duos too easy but in this particular case, iirc, you don't get the second boss in the solo - honestly I think they need to do that with duos here as well. That was the only part we truly had trouble with (handling the two bosses).

We did rather well through the whole thing, too! It was his first time through there, and we each died once, but overall, we were doing well, and when I saw the two bosses at the end, saw their morale, I was DEmoralized! I just looked, already knowing my 'protector' can't take a punch, and said we can try, but I need to see how bad it is. It was really bad...

I don't want to see the instance nerfed either, because it was doable, but that last fight seems more suited for 3 players or more than the two we had. While I realize some classes can do this well, they're not classes I can ever find to group with at my level. So I'm forced to skip duo content until/unless they patch it to help us.

Ran a Duo Protectors of Thangulhad last night, 65 burg/65 hunt. Both with Warriors.

Very first wave, got eight 10k+ sigs and a 20k LT. That was pretty much the norm for the whole skirmish. Most of the LTs we got were immune to mez, stun too: Raging Marauders, giants, whatever troll it is that disables your soldier command skills. Then the NPC ran off looking for the encounter drake.

This was Tier 1.

And no, I was very careful to re-set the size back to Duo from Small Fellow after selecting Thangulhad.

Originally Posted by rawlingsst7

Very first wave, got eight 10k+ sigs and a 20k LT. That was pretty much the norm for the whole skirmish. Most of the LTs we got were immune to mez, stun too: Raging Marauders, giants, whatever troll it is that disables your soldier command skills. Then the NPC ran off looking for the encounter drake.

They were still 10k after being hit with the ballistae?

Originally Posted by Greenasp

I went against the T&M Duo with an RK and hunter. Protector and bannerguard helpers. I looked at it with their 12k health (we were 47 and 46 respective. my protector was rank 5 at level 47 with level 50 skills and training). I tried to heal this, but it's an utter joke. The Protector is all but useless as a protector. It was FAR FAR easier to heal the hunter than the protector! Still, with two elite masters on us, and no CC (we trapped one boss for a short while), we were dead pretty quick, and couldn't figure out a way to do this. As far as I'm concerned, it's either impossible or insanely difficult for some class combos. If I had a guard with me, I might have been able to heal him through that. MAYBE.

I'm giving up even trying duos from now on. This is not a first time experience for me. I've tried several other duos, and while they have been doable, they were still insanely difficult. I have a much easier time doing solo Tier IIs.

If the Hunter you're running with doesn't have Bard's Arrow and Rain of Thorns yet, I would highly recommend getting them before trying that again. Bard's Arrow is a life-saver, although you have to be really careful in T&M b/c if the boss runs off in fear towards the gate, the whole thing will reset.

Originally Posted by gildhur

They were still 10k after being hit with the ballistae?

The wave was spread out in a column, so only about half got hit by the ballista. There was a defiler at the back that then set about healing them up until I got a mez to stick.

Later on one of the waves was three sigs, no LT. One wave was five normal warg-riders. Skirmishes are supposed to be random, but this one was all over the place. I'm just glad we never got a blood-rook.

Originally Posted by rawlingsst7

I'm just glad we never got a blood-rook.

Woulda hit you for 10k with that many mobs around .

Originally Posted by rawlingsst7

The wave was spread out in a column, so only about half got hit by the ballista. There was a defiler at the back that then set about healing them up until I got a mez to stick.

Kill the healer first?

No but really, you can kill 100% of the mobs besides the final mob in Thangulhad just with ballistaes if you're doing higher difficulty than a solo.

Originally Posted by cwswim03

No but really, you can kill 100% of the mobs besides the final mob in Thangulhad just with ballistaes if you're doing higher difficulty than a solo.

Indeed. It's not very intuitive, but Person 1 stays outside the walls, aggros the groups at the hotspots, while Person 2 continually fires the ballistae at them until they're all dead. RK should have no problem kiting and staying alive outside the walls. Only thing you'd have to do differently is encounters.

Originally Posted by gildhur

Indeed. It's not very intuitive, but Person 1 stays outside the walls, aggros the groups at the hotspots, while Person 2 continually fires the ballistae at them until they're all dead. RK should have no problem kiting and staying alive outside the walls. Only thing you'd have to do differently is encounters.

Works most of the time, though a few ranged mobs can make this strat harder to pull off.

Originally Posted by KainXI

Works most of the time, though a few ranged mobs can make this strat harder to pull off.

Of course. But I'm willing to bet that 95% of the people complaining about difficulty don't even try out-of-the-box strategies like this.

Yeah, I'm not complaining that it was overly difficult/QQimpossible, just that the waves seemed (a) inconsistent in size/strength and (b) leaning towards overwhelming. I can see where people with undergeared characters and/or underleveled soldiers would find this impossible and frustrating. It really felt like a regular small fellowship skirmish. The strange CC immunities exacerbated it (encounter drake was stun-immune, but fearable, not that the NPC let it stay feared).

ZC/jwb said that duo skirms are basically 3-mans with the mobs debuffed. I'm starting to think that, while it worked to get duos out the door for V3B1, it needs some tweaking to be successful in the long run. I don't think you should see a wave of 8-10 signatures in a Tier 1 duo, ever. The wave composition and ratio of normals:sigs needs to be examined, not just the amount of morale those sigs have.

Originally Posted by gildhur

Of course. But I'm willing to bet that 95% of the people complaining about difficulty don't even try out-of-the-box strategies like this.

How is that out of the box? That's the easiest and simplest way to do the skirmish. Lul.

Originally Posted by cwswim03

How is that out of the box? That's the easiest and simplest way to do the skirmish. Lul.

It's the very definition of "out of the box". In a solo version of the skirmish, you only get one chance to fire a ballista at each group, then deal with whatever is left once they come inside. That's the default strategy for most people when they approach it ("in the box"). Turning that around completely, using the ballistae repeatedly and having most combat take place outside the walls ("outside the box"?) requires a change in thinking about the instance. The fact that it makes it easier (which most "out of the box" ideas do, that's why people come up with them) is only further to the point.

Sounds like *gasp* emergent behaviour.

I can hear the patch notes now... "Ballistas will now take 10 minutes to reload after each shot."

Originally Posted by Greenasp

I went against the T&M Duo with an RK and hunter. Protector and bannerguard helpers. I looked at it with their 12k health (we were 47 and 46 respective. my protector was rank 5 at level 47 with level 50 skills and training). I tried to heal this, but it's an utter joke. The Protector is all but useless as a protector. It was FAR FAR easier to heal the hunter than the protector! Still, with two elite masters on us, and no CC (we trapped one boss for a short while), we were dead pretty quick, and couldn't figure out a way to do this. As far as I'm concerned, it's either impossible or insanely difficult for some class combos. If I had a guard with me, I might have been able to heal him through that. MAYBE.

Well, it's definitely not the skirmish that's the problem. My wife and I (Hunter/Champ/Prot/Banner) just did T1 65 T&M and never died. No dedicated healer at all. Her Protector died to the boss, but with a healer, I don't see how that would be possible. He lasted almost the entire fight. I only had to tank the second boss. I used a couple of my half a dozen cooldowns, food, and +1 hope, forgot to use more than one skirmish token, and never popped my elf-parry. Dropped down a couple levels or with a dedicated healer, the instance would have been even more of a breeze.

I don't think level 4x characters (who don't have access to LIs, legacies or some very important class skills, probably a lot of the more grindy deeds, and are likely in yellow / purple quality gear) with middling level soldiers are a fair comparison to level 65s with (I assume) uber LIs, maxed deeds, and really powerful soldiers.


-- Z.