Thread: How can we fix wardens in the moors?

The Warden is too OP 1vs1 and far underpowered in group situations.

Is there anyway to fix it? Because i really dont think there is without totally effing up the class.

This isnt really a problem - just wanted to see what others thought about it.

Can we fix wargs, so they arn't allowed to group up and gank a solo target?

Originally Posted by Fladrif

The Warden is too OP 1vs1 and far underpowered in group situations.

Is there anyway to fix it? Because i really dont think there is without totally effing up the class.

This isnt really a problem - just wanted to see what others thought about it.

This is the heart of the Warden class.

If the Warden role could be defined as

Primary: Solo
Secondary: Tank

it would have been.


Get used to it.

I dont think that needs to be fixed. remember that the lore reason for creating the warden was because the warden was suppossed to be the equivalent of a ranger. the warden is the class that roams the wilderness searching to defend middle earth. It makes sense that they would be very powerful in soloing.

in groups though, wardens are like gaurdians, really only useful for a few chance CC effects. if the mob cant be tanked, neither of the classes are very good.l

There's nothing wrong with Wardens in raids. You just need to get a little creative. For example - If you have both the +Javelin range and -Ambush induction, you can really help a raid if co-ordinated. Especially in a ranged fight where the fight is on just one front.

1) ambush your raid's next or current target.
2) Unload all your Javelin skills
3) Run to the back, drop combat
4) Ambush your raid's next or current target.

Remember that The ambush stun is not interrupted by damage, so it's a lot better than a mez or a riddle. That's 5 Seconds where a creep can't move, can't block, parry or evade. If your Ranged DPS are worth anything it'll be dead before the 5 seconds is up. You can do this, or play the AoE fear role, or just get in there are Hit stuff. The moors lack freeps. A warm body is a warm body, and There are lots of things wardens can contribute. If your group is moving around a lot, having Jav toss range and Hampering duration is great for catching creeps trying to escape using forced march.

haven't been in full out 24 v 24 situation (this almost never happens on firefoot) but have been in a few 12 v 12 situations and found that I can pretty much just run up and hit stuff (long as I ask for stun immunity first) and just not die b/c A) they see 7.3k morale and look the other way or B) they don't see my little hobbit running between their legs stabbing them where it hurts

it's funny b/c they don't realize that I'm the only one in the raid that can slow them while kiting or stun they for 5s from 36m away from stealth so they should probably take me out whenever they can hehe.

although now that I've gotten a little bit of a name for myself in 1v1s they're started targeting me on purpose...

P.S. get a pocket burglar to share the fun with you, it makes ambush OP

While I agree that warden's are very strong in a 1v1/solo situation I think we are just fine where we are. There are two things that I believe factor into this.

1. Not enough PvP wardens. Look at the leaderboards and see how many Wardens have reached rank 9 or higher. Those that do play are usually the best of the best PvP wardens, and thus pretty hard to kill.

2. People don't fight us enough to know how to beat us. There are a few people on my server that have fought me a lot and they generally know how to deal with me way better than the others.

For a raid situation I don't think we contribute any less than a guard. Ambush is essentially a 1 hit kill for any creep in a raid situation, Desolation can wreck wargs ability to CC a target, we can spam interrupts on healers and can destroy BA's by getting in their face. You just need to think situationally and decide what is best to do and when.

One thing I notice with most wardens in PvP is that they are generally accepted to be "Useless" and thus are targeted less. I find that to be awesome, keep thinking my class fails and kill me last. See how many creeps are standing when you let the warden run amuck.

Share The Fun + Warden = Ambush galore
Group of Burgs + 1 Warden to bait = Gank squad of doom

I've been the Burg in both situations and I've been on the receiving end of both situations. It's quite fun.

I've suggested making careful step a permanent stealth in the past. While we're built for soloing, we aren't built for soloing in the moors. Stealth would go a long ways to achieving that purpose.

Originally Posted by Rainyman

I've suggested making careful step a permanent stealth in the past. While we're built for soloing, we aren't built for soloing in the moors. Stealth would go a long ways to achieving that purpose.

I tend to agree, but with a maxed CS duration, you can get 50s out of it. It's not good for traveling around the moors, but it's enough when you know where your enemy is going to be. A stealth that lasts indefinitely would certainly be exciting, however, and I don't think that it would tread too heavily on burgs' toes if we can't restealth in combat, and have a cooldown on re-entering stealth as well (say 1 minute after leaving stealth).

Originally Posted by geoboy

I tend to agree, but with a maxed CS duration, you can get 50s out of it. It's not good for traveling around the moors, but it's enough when you know where your enemy is going to be. A stealth that lasts indefinitely would certainly be exciting, however, and I don't think that it would tread too heavily on burgs' toes if we can't restealth in combat, and have a cooldown on re-entering stealth as well (say 1 minute after leaving stealth).

Another problem with CS is that there isn't really a quick way to get out of stealth while you're in it, without anything around to attack. Only thing I can think of is mounting. And, yeah, CS has a huge cooldown anyway.

Originally Posted by Rainyman

Another problem with CS is that there isn't really a quick way to get out of stealth while you're in it, without anything around to attack. Only thing I can think of is mounting.

Can't you click on the CS icon to cancel? Seems odd that you can't do that if you can't. You'd think it would be more like the burg's toggle skill.

Level 66 Skill:
Improved Careful Step: Stealth is now a toggle skill with 1 minute cooldown.

Originally Posted by geoboy

Can't you click on the CS icon to cancel? Seems odd that you can't do that if you can't. You'd think it would be more like the burg's toggle skill.

Level 66 Skill:
Improved Careful Step: Stealth is now a toggle skill with 1 minute cooldown.

Nope. I usually just ambush the closest enemy if I need to get away. Sprinting away is nice, though I suppose mounting works as well. I tried hitting Escape, as well as clicking the skill itself. I think CS just goes on CD once you hit it.


Would love to see that upgrade. The set bonuses for the new PvP set are actually really nice for wardens, would be cool if they added a CS permanence set bonus on gear somewhere.

If they were worried about people having permanent stealths then they'd disable the racial stealths while in the moors. So I don't think having ours be a permanent, even if they left the induction time and cooldown the same, would be a big hassle and it would make many people happy.

It does also follow along with the theme of the class, laying in wait, ready to ambush. Waiting for 20s? Man, that's like teh shortest stakeout ever.

If CS were as you propose it to be I would actually use it.
At least change it for the Race of Man. The racial trait works fine with the elves, or so I've been told.

Originally Posted by Antrius

If CS were as you propose it to be I would actually use it.
At least change it for the Race of Man. The racial trait works fine with the elves, or so I've been told.

It's a prohibitively long Cooldown though.

What does everyone think about a Camo like stealth? We could park at one spot and guard it in stealth, waiting for the enemy to strike.

Would be a cool addition to CS if not a bit limiting.

Takes away from the lore of the class design as we are always on the move guarding the far outposts and desolate regions of middle earth.

Originally Posted by Murtanion

What does everyone think about a Camo like stealth? We could park at one spot and guard it in stealth, waiting for the enemy to strike.

Would be a cool addition to CS if not a bit limiting.

Takes away from the lore of the class design as we are always on the move guarding the far outposts and desolate regions of middle earth.

I think that's fine, but with the direction Turbine has taken, an upgraded stealth is more likely.

Wardens OP 1v1?

Maybe I need to take another look at my warden and see what I am missing. My experience is that when I do get a 1v1 situation, it is usually a close call, but more than 50% of the time, I lose.

That's with a L65 character, 7300 unbuffed morale, and what I consider to be good gambit rotations using all 3 masteries.

Should I go 100% spear traited plus masteries for the moors? I usually go fist traited. Are there any wardens out there that think we 1v1 gods?

I think we used to do better pre SOM, but our inherehnt lack of burn DPS and a large increase to creep morale and resists has made it much more diffucult. Couple that with creeps running through, around, in and out, using roots and stuns, and it's not easy at all to land our gambits.

I don't even touch wardens if they are coming down from gv or a rez or anywhere on the map unless I have someone with me. I have 1v1 many wardens and have only beat the bad geared/rotation ones on my server peeps like Eolar, Fallarden just rock my warg(Nerves I haven't had a chance to 1v1 so can't comment on you) Them and Guardians are the only ones I will not try to gank because its either A)I lose or B) I win but I have no cds for atleast the next 5 mins=(

I don't have a lot of experience in 1v1, so I'll relate what I have seen. Fist is the worst for 1v1. I don't see an upside. The fears are only really potent when put against multiple targets.

Shield traited: long fights that ended up with me dying, it didn't help that my first 1v1 were against a R12 warg (X) and a R11 reaver (slyc). I may have done better had I had a bit more experience , but both were pretty one-sided (not in my favor).

Spear: Just 2 - both wargs one I almost had before I was interrupted by a defiler, and the other was pretty one - sided in my favor as well, I don't think that my morale dropped more than 2 or 3k in the second one.

From what I see, spear-traited fights are over quicker and there is less chance of you screwing it up. Hampering + Shield piercer to start while building WT then into a rotation.

I also happened across a couple solo warleaders and a defiler, both low rank so I don't count those.

I hope to get some more 1v1 in the future with some higher ranked creeps, but I've got realistic expectations about being interrupted.

Originally Posted by Naso24

Wardens OP 1v1?

Maybe I need to take another look at my warden and see what I am missing.

If you trait shield you should never loose a 1v1. I trait all masteries and full shield with the legendary. The ultra stance legendary (forgot its name) is also awesome for 1v1's

Originally Posted by Sylmerilion

If you trait shield you should never loose a 1v1. I trait all masteries and full shield with the legendary. The ultra stance legendary (forgot its name) is also awesome for 1v1's

I'm pretty sure I could melt any warden, no matter how he's traited, on my weaver. The only class that stands a chance is the RK... maybe the mini, too, and it's a very slim chance.

It would help if more of us came out to the moors I'd love to have 4 or 5 wardens launching JODF on a mass of creeps (stuck in tar) and followed up with a war cry...or 4 wardens focus firing WT on a single target. There's a lot that we can do and test. Being disruptive is our nature especially with the -3 ambush induction. With that legacy and coordinated fire from raid, u can take down a 10k WL fast. Now, as Asterix said, we are not invulnerable. Coming out to the moors means you will die but hey, the repair cost are really nill compared to pve, and if all you did was blow stuff away then that would be boring. You want to take chances, try different tactics, the moors is a great place to do that.

A careful step upgrade/toggle would be great. In the moors, I've used CS more in the past month than in 6 months of pve.

Originally Posted by Rainyman

I'm pretty sure I could melt any warden, no matter how he's traited, on my weaver. The only class that stands a chance is the RK... maybe the mini, too, and it's a very slim chance.

Which is why I trait spear. Fighting weavers is completely different from every other kind of fight. They power drain, debuff to kingdom come, and try and feebly kite you. When I fight weavers I know I need to keep my poisons to a minimum, keep a stun pot ready, slow my target, and DPS like crazy.

You need to keep up the 3 DoTs and desolation. Spiders cannot remain in their burrow if desolation is on them.

Here is the rotation I use for DPS in PvE. Should I do something different in PvP?

DPS (can get 15% more damage from spear traiting, plus 10% with WT, plus 30% on WT full spear.)

1[32][13] Triumph 563-648
1[23][12] Unerring Strike 281-366 + (141x4)
1[21]2 Wall of Steel (127-212) x 3
1[31] Combination Strike (173-258) x2 or Mighty Blow 12[31] 273-362 + (118x4)

I grabbed the damage numbers while shield traited, so these will go up spear traited. If am fighting a particularly mobile creep, I short WOS and just use 1[21].

Any suggestions for better 1v1 and group combat rotations assuming spear trait?

If you're fighting a weaver, you'll want to throw desolation in there, as the fears can pop them if they're burrowed.

Originally Posted by Rainyman

I'm pretty sure I could melt any warden, no matter how he's traited, on my weaver. The only class that stands a chance is the RK... maybe the mini, too, and it's a very slim chance.

A little cocky? hehe

If the warden knows what they're doing against a weaver-it will always be a fun fight(in my experience)

You could either go spear traited and make the fight a DPS race, or you can turtle yourself up with large power reserve build(my favorite).

With 4k power you can spam your HoTs, throw the javvys, and keep desolation/various fist dots up. As another person already posted, desolation can really **** some stuff up, inlcuding the burrow. EoB/Resolution off the hatchlings is also nice.
I usually down some poison resist food also, not that it makes too much difference-but I always feel safer :P

Just my .02