Thread: Is the Lvl 65 Second Age Symbol TOO rare?

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

The only thing "rare" AND "desirable" in LOTRO for the vast majority of the population is/are 2nd age weapons with a very few items from the mans.

So making the symbol more common would eliminate the "rare" quality of seconds ages, is there any other downside to making them more common (see below to your second point)?

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

Why do ppl run SG? For the symbol. Make it very common and there's even less to do in the game.

IMO, and its just an opinion. I think there are A LOT of players that got ONE symbol and quit running SG whether or not they liked the LI that resulted from it. The concept of grinding out another symbol only to face another failure at the LI Lottery is/was just to much. I also think there are A LOT of players that stop running SG entirely because they have just resigned to the idea that they will not ever get a symbol. SO, while your point is valid, there is also a cause/effect for making the item to "rare".

If people could rely on getting a symbol after a certain amount of effort and it was not just be a matter of pure luck, IMO, they would be much more prone to repeat it. They can craft several LI in an effort to get the "perfect" one verses facing an huge unknown/grind for another failure at the LI lottery.

Even at the peak of the "flood" of lv60 crafted second age items, a good one still sold for 20+ gold on the AH. IMO, again, just my opinion, 20+ gold for a second age is to much. Heck, bad ones still pulled 5-6 gold. The flooding effect of crafting second ages being relatively easy was minimal to game play at worse, with most not being affected all all.

Originally Posted by wyldcyde

drop rate is too low in BG.
2nd ages are a waste of my time due to RNG legacy/tier system.

that is all.

^^^ This man speaks my mind. I have better thing to do then farm SA's, like scratch myself....

Originally Posted by KainXI

This. If raids were balanced around people with random legacies, they would be laughably easy for those of us who put time into building our effectiveness.

Probably true to some extent. Then again, I think a good player with average gear is far more effective than a bad player with great gear. I mean, come on, have you ever grouped with someone who you were almost positive they bought their account..Why did you think that?

I think Turbine uses data miners in their instances. They don't necessary pay attention to the potential of players and their gear, but they monitor what the players/groups are actually doing in the instances. I could never prove it, but I think this practice was started with the Turtle, or at lest kicked up a notch.

Originally Posted by doug01

IMO, and its just an opinion. I think there are A LOT of players that got ONE symbol and quit running SG whether or not they liked the LI that resulted from it. The concept of grinding out another symbol only to face another failure at the LI Lottery is/was just to much. I also think there are A LOT of players that stop running SG entirely because they have just resigned to the idea that they will not ever get a symbol. SO, while your point is valid, there is also a cause/effect for making the item to "rare".

If people could rely on getting a symbol after a certain amount of effort and it was not just be a matter of pure luck, IMO, they would be much more prone to repeat it. They can craft several LI in an effort to get the "perfect" one verses facing an huge unknown/grind for another failure at the LI lottery.

Even at the peak of the "flood" of lv60 crafted second age items, a good one still sold for 20+ gold on the AH. IMO, again, just my opinion, 20+ gold for a second age is to much. Heck, bad ones still pulled 5-6 gold. The flooding effect of crafting second ages being relatively easy was minimal to game play at worse, with most not being affected all all.

/signed.

I traded my first symbol to a kinmate for 5 Flakes, because I knew that the ID would suck. He got shafted on the ID. Later, he traded me a symbol for 5 Flakes. I got shafted on the ID. It's been weeks since I've been to SG, and I have no desire to go back. Actually, I have no desire to do anything in Mirkwood, at this point.

WAI?

What if deconning a lv65 second age that had been leveled all the way to 60 or 70 gave you a Symbol? Anyone suggested this?

Originally Posted by Insan0

Not sure why you're laughing, but you're corroborating my point. Doesn't matter if people are in raiding kins or not, the second ages are getting through to everyone.

No I'm making the point that you're an arrogant jerk, and I'm laughing because you're sounding like a fool:

"getting through to everyone"

As if someone outside of a raiding kin is somehow a lesser player.

I've PUGGED all the elite material you and your kin have done.

Well, I already explained what I meant. If you wanna interpret it this way, that's not my problem. I did not in any moment call anyone a lesser player, or implied casual players can't do content.
I'm not gonna argue over this, if you wanna think I'm an arrogant elitist *****, too bad. I guess I cared enough to even reply again, but since I'm probably not gonna change anyone's mind, peace.

Originally Posted by doug01

So making the symbol more common would eliminate the "rare" quality of seconds ages, is there any other downside to making them more common (see below to your second point)?

Rare is a word used to denote low numbers of abundance, uncommon, scarce. My point is, outside BG, the only place u can get a rare is in SG. Not to beat a dead horse, but very few ppl go to BG in general, even more so with the frustration some groups are experimenting with patch 3.1. Therefore, a lot of ppl only shot of getting 1) the best possibility of having the best weapon in the game and 2) a rare is SG. Notice that I've never said it's fair whatever the chance is. It's too based on luck imo. What I totally disagree is to have a garanteed drop or a skirmish reward. Bump the drop chance to 30% maybe.

IMO, and its just an opinion. I think there are A LOT of players that got ONE symbol and quit running SG whether or not they liked the LI that resulted from it. The concept of grinding out another symbol only to face another failure at the LI Lottery is/was just to much. I also think there are A LOT of players that stop running SG entirely because they have just resigned to the idea that they will not ever get a symbol. SO, while your point is valid, there is also a cause/effect for making the item to "rare".

If people could rely on getting a symbol after a certain amount of effort and it was not just be a matter of pure luck, IMO, they would be much more prone to repeat it. They can craft several LI in an effort to get the "perfect" one verses facing an huge unknown/grind for another failure at the LI lottery.

Even at the peak of the "flood" of lv60 crafted second age items, a good one still sold for 20+ gold on the AH. IMO, again, just my opinion, 20+ gold for a second age is to much. Heck, bad ones still pulled 5-6 gold. The flooding effect of crafting second ages being relatively easy was minimal to game play at worse, with most not being affected all all.

I respect your opinion, I honestly do. The thing is, IMO, with the lack of content being so evident (mainly for non raiders, casuals, non-harcore, whatever u wanna call), if the drop is garanteed, ppl will farm that place and the sense of rarity in the game will be gone in a few days. At least ppl still go there for a shot at it. With a garanteed drop, I'd just buy it from the Ah...

Just farm 90-110G..its easier than you think and you wouldn't get mad cuz someone else roll lol..Besides lets say you get the symbol, are you going to craft it or sell it???? if u going to craft it, what are the changes you get something good??? I think that it is more rare than the symbol itself lol.

I ran SM for the first time last weekend with a PuG. The Symbol dropped on the third boss, and the winner rolled a 43. We laughed and congratulated him. Nobody cared. One of the 6 missed his roll due to a lag issue, so even after it was won, the winner allowed him to roll on it, knowing he had a better than 50% chance of losing with his 43. It was all good. 2A LIs arent that important other than bragging rights IMO.

Originally Posted by Wyelde

This is becoming an area of frustration for me. After running SG over 2 dozen times, I have seen the symbol drop maybe 5 times in all of that. And, or course, someone else won the roll.

It's getting to the point where, if I want to continue to enjoy the game, I will need to quit thinking about the symbol alltogether. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I believe it should drop every time in there at least.

Any opinions?

awwww poor baby.

know what else sucks? 0/40+. yes, i have never seen the symbol drop. ever.

5/2 dozen = 5/24 = ~21%.

are you seriously complaining about a 20% drop rate?

give me a break.

Originally Posted by doug01

If people could rely on getting a symbol after a certain amount of effort and it was not just be a matter of pure luck, IMO, they would be much more prone to repeat it. They can craft several LI in an effort to get the "perfect" one verses facing an huge unknown/grind for another failure at the LI lottery.

The two symbols I received were based more on effort than chance at running SG. Like somebody mentioned, I raised enough gold, doing skirmishes if you can believe that to buy two symbols from the AH. This is one option you can do if you want a symbol. Like a poster mentioned, get the money and buy one. My LM staff had ****** legacies except share the power, so I kep that one legacy and turned the other 4 legacies into stats (agil, will, vit, and fate). I now raid with that staff and replaced my loth crafted staff when I got a couple of t9's into that staff. I still use a 65 third age staff for DPS when I solo.

The second one I made was a two handed captain's sword. It is a decent sword but didn't get telling mark. It has to arms duration, melee skill power, and some utility traits like +duration for make haste.

I've done numerous SG runs and seen the symbol drop around 10 times or so, with 90% of these being kin runs. When the symbol dropped, I just passed and let somebody else have it that needed it.

Anyway, you have two choices to get a symbol. One is effort based, just get the money and buy one, while the second is do SG runs until you eventually get one. For me, I've done my share of SG runs, but I'll go to SG to help kin members that need other things in there (i.e. epilogue quest or completing the quests that are from Helechir). While I could make the effort to get more symbols, my third age emblem/third age LM book are quite satisfactory for me. As for my other alts, I'll stick with third ages. It's good enough legendary for this current content.

Originally Posted by IGolbezI

awwww poor baby.

know what else sucks? 0/40+. yes, i have never seen the symbol drop. ever.

5/2 dozen = 5/24 = ~21%.

are you seriously complaining about a 20% drop rate?

give me a break.

Wow dude. 0%. That is bad. But...we have some lovely parting gifts for you *shows new 10-speed blender*

Originally Posted by Goo-see-nopants

The two symbols I received were based more on effort than chance at running SG. Like somebody mentioned, I raised enough gold, doing skirmishes if you can believe that to buy two symbols from the AH. This is one option you can do if you want a symbol. Like a poster mentioned, get the money and buy one. My LM staff had ****** legacies except share the power, so I kep that one legacy and turned the other 4 legacies into stats (agil, will, vit, and fate). I now raid with that staff and replaced my loth crafted staff when I got a couple of t9's into that staff. I still use a 65 third age staff for DPS when I solo.

The second one I made was a two handed captain's sword. It is a decent sword but didn't get telling mark. It has to arms duration, melee skill power, and some utility traits like +duration for make haste.

I've done numerous SG runs and seen the symbol drop around 10 times or so, with 90% of these being kin runs. When the symbol dropped, I just passed and let somebody else have it that needed it.

Anyway, you have two choices to get a symbol. One is effort based, just get the money and buy one, while the second is do SG runs until you eventually get one. For me, I've done my share of SG runs, but I'll go to SG to help kin members that need other things in there (i.e. epilogue quest or completing the quests that are from Helechir). While I could make the effort to get more symbols, my third age emblem/third age LM book are quite satisfactory for me. As for my other alts, I'll stick with third ages. It's good enough legendary for this current content.

I see the AH as a legitimate gold farming process. As I said in my original post, if they DON'T use the AH then your only other options are completely reliant on luck. Luck based systems for rewards = not fun. Just look at the token system in place for radaince items verses what was in place at the release of MoM. Turbine/Devs have all but acknowledge that luck based systems are a failure. Anyone here barter for those Loth gift boxes when they were introduce? You could have gotten 1st LI from them..instead luck made them a HUGE failure.

If you see no problem with farming gold to purchase off the AH then, IMO , you shouldn't have any issue with making them available through skirmish. Just farming marks, same method different bartering. Ahhh, but one greatly benefits the lucky symbol winner, one does not.

My guess is that most who think buying the symbol off the AH is fine and a viable way of getting one are also AGAINST having them in skirmishes. Wonder why...

Just to be clear, I don't not think they should be in skirmishes right now, but I also think that buying them from the AH is a...weak...way to make them available to a player that doesn't want to play the chest drop lottery then follewed up by the legacy lottery.

Luck based system that determines rewards for a job well done = fail

Do i think the symbol drop rate sucks in SG? Yeah lol. Do i care? Not really. I personally enjoy running SG. To me it's the best 6 man instance the game has to offer at the moment. Must've ran it 50+ times now and still have fun doing it. Have yet to get a symbol but have seen 5-10 people that did get one which is cool. I just look at it like this...My time will come. I just need to be patient and wait for that time.

See people get so hung up on loot drops that they forget the reason they even play the game. If you dont like running SG, dont run it. 65 2nd age really isnt a gigantic leap from a level 65 3rd age. I mean...When i run through SG with a good group, everyone wearing level 65 3rd ages, we smoke it in 30 minutes ish. What does that tell you? It tells you that 65 2nd ages are over-hyped. Not to say i dont want one, of course I do. Just saying people need to enjoy their playtime without even caring about loot drops.

If i were to complain about any drop in the game it would be the miniature brass anvil in HoC. But even that...I love running HoC on my champ. It's super fun hehe. So i dont mind.

Originally Posted by Thuarval

2A LIs arent that important other than bragging rights IMO.

The Raw DPS figure is higher on a second age. Your champ is less effective at DPS than a champ with a 2nd age, period. It has nothing to do with bragging rights, its simply a better piece of gear. If you just want to run around and do quests it doesnt matter. For people who want to be successful in BG, everyone in the raid needs to do everything they can to increase performance.

Originally Posted by dhatcher1

The Raw DPS figure is higher on a second age. Your champ is less effective at DPS than a champ with a 2nd age, period. It has nothing to do with bragging rights, its simply a better piece of gear. If you just want to run around and do quests it doesnt matter. For people who want to be successful in BG, everyone in the raid needs to do everything they can to increase performance.

This. I have noticed steadily smoother and smoother BG runs as people have aquired better and better weapons. Its not simply a result of learning the strat. We had the Guantlet down after a few runs. The reason it keeps getting easier is that people are bringing more and more DPS and healing to the table through 2As.

Originally Posted by KainXI

This. I have noticed steadily smoother and smoother BG runs as people have aquired better and better weapons. Its not simply a result of learning the strat. We had the Guantlet down after a few runs. The reason it keeps getting easier is that people are bringing more and more DPS and healing to the table through 2As.

I would not have expected that going from a 3A to 2A would make that much of a difference. I haven't seen the symbol drop yet, nor am I keen on picking one up for anything other than the slight DPS boost and epeen rights. I have a kin mate who has got a few and was totally disappointed in the ID. I am mentally fragile and can't handle the rejection.

Originally Posted by Earedhel

I would not have expected that going from a 3A to 2A would make that much of a difference.

BG seems to have been balanced assuming people have optimum gear. A couple extra percent performance from everyone magnifies into significantly better success for the group.

Fortunately my 2nd Age Hunter bow got decent legacies. My guards sword only got stomp cooldown so I use it for SG and SH. I havent tried it in BG yet; I am not sure if the 5% DPS boost is worth losing the legacies I have on my third age axe.

yes 2A is better if it has legacies you want.
3rd age with ideal legacies > poor or average 2A in some cases.

biggest factor is person behind the controls... many a time i've been grouped with someone that has excellent gear but lacks impressive performance.

even on 'simple' classes like champ and hunter... a sub optimal rotation and lack of full concentration has huge impact on dps.

so if you're going to break your back farming for 2A pls make sure you have the skill to match or exceed your gear hehe

Originally Posted by wyldcyde

...
biggest factor is person behind the controls...

QFT

woooooorrrdddsss

Originally Posted by wyldcyde

yes 2A is better if it has legacies you want.
3rd age with ideal legacies > poor or average 2A in some cases.

I think the fact you feel uncomfortable enough with this statement to qualify it with "in some cases" just underscores that it is actually significant.

biggest factor is person behind the controls... many a time i've been grouped with someone that has excellent gear but lacks impressive performance.

even on 'simple' classes like champ and hunter... a sub optimal rotation and lack of full concentration has huge impact on dps.

We are comparing two pieces of gear, not two players. Everyone knows that Leeroy Jenkins can get you killed even if you let him session play Gandalf the White.

so if you're going to break your back farming for 2A pls make sure you have the skill to match or exceed your gear hehe

Dang, I've been wasting my time...

Originally Posted by dhatcher1

I think the fact you feel uncomfortable enough with this statement to qualify it with "in some cases" just underscores that it is actually significant.

no im just trying to be somewhat accurate.

yes it is significant. that 5% will help when comparing two equal items in terms of legacies.

but 2A champ item with no aoe and crit... no thanks.
lm book without SOP durations and resists...
brg weapon without trick range, crit etc...
hunter mainhand without needful haste...
rk stone with poor ID... lol

when it comes to actual hard content like BG... i've been in raids where the gear difference is actually not all that big but the skill difference is huge... eg doing lock 1&2 HM in 2hrs with no boss wipes vs spending 4hrs wiping on durchest.

anyways this is no surprise... back when moria launched 2nd ages were very very rare and plenty of people just skipped them and went straight to first ages.
My champ never had a 2nd age lvl 60 weapon.

similar scenario now, hence why i'm fine to wait for FA items where effort vs reward will be more healthy ratio.

if i only had 1 or 2 chars i probably would grind for ideal 2nd age just because there isn't much else todo.

symbol too rare?
Simple answer is no.

The concept of finding second age item should be rare. When they started dropping, and crafting was added, theu became too commonplace. First Ages should be even more rare than second ages.

So lets fix this, and I'm gonna play the evil person everyone hates. Make it cost 5 mithril flakes to craft a lvl 60 second age. Increase the number of medallions needed for the first age lvl 60. Keep the symbol rare, but....change how second and first ages access the premiere pool legacies and how they tier up those legacies. Make it so that third ages pull from the good pool of legacies 5% of the time, second ages pull from that pool 15%, of the time, and first ages would pull from the good pool 25% of the time. Add that factor to the way legacies upgrade too. So its more likely to go up only one rank on a third age, whereas that first age is likely to go up to by 3 ranks. Nothing is more disheartening to have your LI crafted from such a rare product and get the worst legs and even worse tier rankings. So why not make finding or crafting that LI worth the hassle. Honestly there aren't many weapons that could survive the time frame between the first age and third ages of middle earth. Lost in battle, lost at sea, destroyed, rusted, rotted, buried with the dead, forgotten...crafting such an object should require something so rare and valuable that people would lie cheat, steal or murder for.