Thread: The relationship between tank classes (or, How Guardians Really Feel About Champs)

I really think this picture says it all, eh?



(Joke, joke... Heh. Context is that the Champion is laughing at the "new kid" Warden, while the Guardian is instructing her. At least, that's my interpretation of this little interplay between these NPCs.)

Picture = 1000 words.

Essay done.

You know the next words out of Gragan's mouth are going to be, "Whatever, dude. SHING SHING!"

I love em but, judging by the champ forums, the feeling is obviously not mutual.

I hear you Harman...have felt similarly myself (liking what they do bring to a group), though not really understanding their rampantly expressed feelings that we are simply useless (sourced out of some type of weird envy / inferiority issues cuz they can't beat us in spar??). Regardless, it has me reacting proportionately negatively and concluding this:

They should be comparatively let to die first in a group, and then to be also last warranting of a rez. I am sincere and practical in this...should they grab more than they can handle from the tank...too bad for them...finish the encounter with that aggro then restored and all the rest of it also on the tank hopefully, protecting the squishies, presumably healing the tank through it all -- and only THEN sort out the aggro-boy/s.

BG kindof favors this to be the rule and not the exception...hopefully more similar content will follow.

My biggest problem is not with the Champions because they are doing nothing "wrong". My problem is with Turbine's broken game mechanics.

Turbine has all but admitted (and I'm to lazy to hunt the quote down) that they will never truly get rid of fervour tanking. They will address it and make it difficult to do but they feel they will never truly be able to get rid of it.

Therein lies the problem. What good is it for a Guardian to aspire to be the absolute best he or she can be when the game regulates the classes role as un-necessary since it's possible to adequately tank 99% of the game's content through sheer raw DPS and survive while doing so?

That's the problem. Champions talking about how they are so awesome is nothing new because in my mind they aren't doing anything. They aren't using some superior set of tactics or anything like that, they are just building up 5 pips and spamming RB and their survival while engaging in that practice is adequate enough that they continue to do it. I personally ignore their bragging on the issue because again they aren't doing anything special.

The issue is simple. The game is designed for DPS to pull aggro if DPS doesn't show restraint. However, the game has NEVER truly punished DPS for pulling aggro. It's just made it harder for healers to keep them up but it's still doable.

Since the game doesn't truly punish DPS for pulling aggro and if DPS classes can survive just fine without aggro they why bother with a Guardian or a Warden?

Another reason for the current hostility is Champions blame us for every nerf passed down to them. "If you were any good at holding aggro I wouldn't have to be nerfed".

My response is "since you aren't dying for pulling aggro the devs felt the need to nerf you".

I don't know. Fellowships are all about working together. If you're both going to be tanking then fine, you just have to work out who will be the main- and off- tank so to speak (this goes for any fellowship/content). It's only when folk break the rules does it become a problem. As many others have said before, the game's designed so DPS classes can pull of tank classes if they really go all out - if this wasn't the case it would be very boring - so if your champion is being a tool and stroking their epeen by see how they can pull off the tank (FT including) just let the healer in your fellowship know that it's probably smart to let them (the champion/dps being a tool) fall in battle. A couple of defeats and they get the picture soon enough.

Honestly though, i have not encountered one champion in the game, period, that has illustrated they know how to properly tank/off-tank.

Take a second Champion, and have the better geared Champ tank.

Until Turbine puts the work in to make a solid, tank requiring combat system, that's what'll always happen.

(Notice how no one gives a flying f*** about Wardens?)

You know, if you want a true, honest and informed opinion on the state of tanking in this (or any) game... you ask the healers.

They'll tell you the truth.

As I have a healer, I'll throw that one out as well.

More Champs = faster and more farmable.

Guardian = I get bored.

Most champions don't want to be "the tank", but then at the same time neither do they want to lay off the SHING SHING and obnoxiously large crits in the first 5 seconds of combat.

There's a few things that guardians need to know about champs...

First, lots of champs *love* pulling aggro. They see it as some kind of test of their ability to do enough dps to pull all the aggro off the boss. They also *hate* pulling aggro because it means they will die very quickly if they don't do something about it.

Champs can hold aggro on a group of mobs better than any guardian could ever dream of. Unfortunately, unfortunately, they can only do this through dps, which means that a lot of mobs could end up dying (bad for when there are mobs around that you can't kill). Champs generate the highest amount of aggro of all the classes, but they lose the tanking job to the two classes who can actually survive the aggro they generate. That's not to say a champ is wearing paper armour - a champ traited for it can have a ton of armour and a ton of defense. It's just not on par with what a guardian has.

A champ who starts a battle off with shing-shing or a horn blast is a champ who has been told to do so for a specific reason (ie; summoner inductions in SG), who doesn't think the guard can get aggro on everything, or who doesn't know how to play his class. 99% of fights should be led off with Rend, not shing-shing or horn.

If a champ does get all the aggro for some reason, that champ can dump it back onto the guard fairly quickly. He may need to be educated as to that fact.

I hope I'm not intruding as a Champ but I view the big three tanks (sorry but I can't take a capt seriously as a main tank) as flavours of the same thing. Champs like to go SHING SHING RAWR, flailing about so much the mobs can't conceivably ignore them, the skilled Guardian who stands steady and challenges his foes to honest combat and the warden who infuriates the mobs by refusing...to...die...

I hold no animosity towards any other class, especially my fellow soldiers of the line. It's not about being the best at tanking, it's about making it fun and interesting.

And I find the interplay of those three npcs hilarious.

Very amusing picture - good capture.

Beyond that, I'm not getting into another Champ vs. Guardian discussion. Frankly, I think we've all done it enough times by now.

My unasked for (and ultimately probably unheeded) advice - enjoy and comment on the funny picture, and move on. Nothing is going to be said that hasn't been said many times over since Moria launched.

Originally Posted by Crissaegrim

You know, if you want a true, honest and informed opinion on the state of tanking in this (or any) game... you ask the healers.

They'll tell you the truth.

Indeed.

If I'm healing, a guard should tank. It just makes things smoother. I'm not one who cares about "getting the run done as fast as possible".



As a guard, I don't like champs on principle, I guess. I mean, it's not like I hate them, but since they seem to despise us I figured I'd better give them a mean look or something.

Originally Posted by MataTahu

Indeed.

a guard should tank. It just makes things smoother. I'm not one who cares about "getting the run done as fast as possible".

As a guard, I don't like champs on principle, I guess. I mean, it's not like I hate them, but since they seem to despise us I figured I'd better give them a mean look or something.

I agree with this statement, (removed the bit about healing because I dont' heal), with the addendum that the majority of champions that I have encountered are grossly incompetent. The operating assumption by most people that I have discussed this with is that DPS causes brain rot.

Champs are fine.

Problem lies with turbine and the focus on DPS race fights rather than making a fight challenging requiring the skill sets of all classes.

If you think those fellows are funny, check out the LM npc nearby. The Captain is hilarious.

I don't know it kinda looks like Wulfhild has had enough of the dwarf. She's getting ready to attack him.

Originally Posted by atimes

My biggest problem is not with the Champions because they are doing nothing "wrong". My problem is with Turbine's broken game mechanics.

What good is it for a Guardian to aspire to be the absolute best he or she can be when the game regulates the classes role as un-necessary since it's possible to adequately tank 99% of the game's content through sheer raw DPS and survive while doing so?

Completely true, outside of BG. One raid where a Guardian is actually a necessity to complete content really doesn't fix the problem.

Of course, having played a Champion to 60 and done a fair bit of raiding as a Champ, I can also say that fixing Ebbing Ire by a) putting it on a different timer from Rising Ire and b) lowering its cooldown so it's actually useful would go a long way towards solving the problem (at least for Champs who've bothered to figure out how to use Ebbing effectively).

Originally Posted by Ruthelia

Honestly though, i have not encountered one champion in the game, period, that has illustrated they know how to properly tank/off-tank.

I know of several on our server (I'm only adequate on my champ, not that much practice I much prefer tanking on my guard). The ones I know that tank well also manage their DPS aggro well when not tanking though.

I love Champs. They are probably my favorite class aside from the Guardian (me) and the Minstrel.

A couple kinnies and I were bored on Monday, so we got a group of
1 Guard
4 Champs
1 RK (swapped in a lv58 Minnie at some point)

We ran HoC, GS HM, Skumfil HM, FG Lunchroom and then FG HM.

Did they need a guardian? No.
Was I able to tank and keep aggro? Yes.
Did I need threat stance? I don't know, but I used it.
Did we lay waste and have fun? Hell yes.

I'd run with 4 champs (or maybe 3 champs + LM with Improved Sticky Gourd) all the time if I could. I enjoy watching things burn and the SHING SHING.

I love champs; I don't personally want to play one (tried one a long time ago up to around level 25, but didn't enjoy the class), but love being grouped with one. They bring plenty of DPS without also being squishy (less headache for my guardian). If the champ steals aggro, no problem; that's one less mob I have to worry about and I don't have to run over and grab aggro back right away like I have to do with other [squishy] classes. The champ's heavy armor will let it survive a while. If it's a smart player on the champ (and especially if we've played together before), then doing aggro-ping pong between my guardian and the champ is a blast in addition to being a good way to distribute the damage.

I think the issues between the classes really started way back when Hakai introduced the wounding debuff on tanking (for those who were around back then) -- Hakai, the class dev back then for both guardians and champions, personally played a champ (and that might have created just the wrong motivation for nerfing guardians). Prior to that, champs were "just" heavily armored DPS (off-tanks) and the main tanking role clearly belonged to guardians (whom nobody would ever claim were useful as secondary DPS back then, pre-overpower days, with our pathetic DPS). If Hakai had never messed with the class, the class roles probably would not have ever become an issue. When you created a character, you created a guardian to tank or created a champion for melee DPS. Period. This is a case of a developer mucking around with something that was perfectly fine before it was changed.

In retrospect, a lot of the class roles have become blurred. The introduction of the warden and runkeeper classes blurs things even more since they are clearly hybrid skills (and IMHO both overpowered classes even if not played well). How much of that is Turbine's response to player outroar on the forums is anybody's guess.

Having a guardian and a champion both at 65, I can say that it is great to have them in combination in a group, as long as the other is competent.

As a guardian, I don't mind the champ temporarily taking aggro from time to time, as long as they can a) stay alive or b) use ebbing ire to give me the aggro back when/if they start getting in trouble.

As a champion, I try not to take the main aggro from a guardian, and will use ebbing ire as often as I can to help the guardian maintain aggro, so that I may sching sching and do as much dps as I can without dying.

Originally Posted by macdadg

Having a guardian and a champion both at 65, I can say that it is great to have them in combination in a group, as long as the other is competent.

As a guardian, I don't mind the champ temporarily taking aggro from time to time, as long as they can a) stay alive or b) use ebbing ire to give me the aggro back when/if they start getting in trouble.

As a champion, I try not to take the main aggro from a guardian, and will use ebbing ire as often as I can to help the guardian maintain aggro, so that I may sching sching and do as much dps as I can without dying.

And for that, you have my thanks! As both a minstrel and a guardian...

Too bad most champs I see don't care about their aggro... (No, I'm not saying there aren't ANY, in fact, I group with several who are very good; it's just a general observation).

Originally Posted by MataTahu

And for that, you have my thanks! As both a minstrel and a guardian...

Too bad most champs I see don't care about their aggro... (No, I'm not saying there aren't ANY, in fact, I group with several who are very good; it's just a general observation).

I think it comes from being a guardian first. As a guardian, we have to have aggro to keep aggro. It's much more difficult to steal aggro back than it is to keep it from initial aggro. I usually throw protection on any champ in my group just in case they get aggro from me, that way I can get my reactives, and generate aggro again.

Originally Posted by Crissaegrim

You know, if you want a true, honest and informed opinion on the state of tanking in this (or any) game... you ask the healers.

They'll tell you the truth.

I'm a Single target striker (Berseker) / Tanker (Martial). I still get blamed for the break mezzes despite I don't EVER AoE unless instructed (Better ask the Harasser traited Guardian spamming Vexxing Blow *cough*). I tank Sword and Board or DW in Glory, I do clobber duty, I transfer/ dump Aggro, I save the healers butts, and when the guardian Dies I pick up aggro the best to my ability is a snap. Yet I still get blamed for things I did not do ... read your fricken Combat logs leaders !!

As for the healers, often ask me to use two weapons in glory because the healing is fine.

Thank you, the Blamed Champion doing his jobS.

./steps_off_soap_box

Originally Posted by Ripflex

I'm a Single target striker (Berseker) / Tanker (Martial). I still get blamed for the break mezzes despite I don't EVER AoE unless instructed (Better ask the Harasser traited Guardian spamming Vexxing Blow *cough*). I tank Sword and Board or DW in Glory, I do clobber duty, I transfer/ dump Aggro, I save the healers butts, and when the guardian Dies I pick up aggro the best to my ability is a snap. Yet I still get blamed for things I did not do ... read your fricken Combat logs leaders !!

As for the healers, often ask me to use two weapons in glory because the healing is fine.

Thank you, the Blamed Champion doing his jobS.

./steps_off_soap_box

You're the kind of champ I actually like. I haven't said anything about champs being a problem for the minstrel, even in tanking situations. I just like healing Guards better. And I like playing my guard more than my (level 24) champ. (and, there are plenty of champs who are rather incompetent, just as I'm sure there are for all classes.)


EDIT: So I totally misread "leaders" as "healers" in the quoted post. So the next section is making a point that didn't need to be made!
{And let me speak at least for the minstrels that I know (and myself, of course): healers don't tend to call out the CC-breaking. That job goes to the folks who put the CC up in the first place (my LM )}

Originally Posted by Kreegan

I love being grouped with one. They bring plenty of DPS without also being squishy (less headache for my guardian). If the champ steals aggro, no problem; that's one less mob I have to worry about, If it's a smart player on the champ.

/this, and i paraphrased Kreegan.

a champ can in fact tank, but better then a guard or warden...no. if the the champ has not lost all brain activity from "DPS brain rot" then threat isnt gona be a huge problem but walking that fine maxDPS/nontank line is hard and if i lose one mob to a competent champ then i know they know they can deal with it.

Personally, i like having a champ in group. Most times a champ, warden duo seems to work out well in my experience. Just the other day a champ friend and myself duo'd SH, (easy mode though) which is no huge feat but it was fun all the same.

Originally Posted by Kreegan

a lot of the class roles have become blurred. The introduction of the warden and runkeeper classes blurs things even more since they are clearly hybrid skills

Im not trying to be smart-aleck but how so with warden? RK is obviously DPS/healer hybrid. I know my class and we, Spear traited or not will never win a parse, or ever out heal any primary or secondary healers.

Originally Posted by Ripflex

I'm a Single target striker (Berseker) / Tanker (Martial). I still get blamed for the break mezzes despite I don't EVER AoE unless instructed (Better ask the Harasser traited Guardian spamming Vexxing Blow *cough*). I tank Sword and Board or DW in Glory, I do clobber duty, I transfer/ dump Aggro, I save the healers butts, and when the guardian Dies I pick up aggro the best to my ability is a snap. Yet I still get blamed for things I did not do ... read your fricken Combat logs leaders !!

As for the healers, often ask me to use two weapons in glory because the healing is fine.

Thank you, the Blamed Champion doing his jobS.

./steps_off_soap_box

I turned on the "Combat State Break Notices" (or whatever it's called) a long time ago. I finally got tired of being blamed for every mezz broken just because I was the Champ. Besides that, it's fun to see an LM put a dot on a mob then mezz it, then wonder who broke the mezz.

Originally Posted by disappearingone

Im not trying to be smart-aleck but how so with warden? RK is obviously DPS/healer hybrid. I know my class and we, Spear traited or not will never win a parse, or ever out heal any primary or secondary healers.

Seriously...does "we are the fellowship" ring any bells...you mean you haven't soloed DN yet? I am being facetious and am not mocking your question...wardens are seriously uber in survival against mutliple mobs due to a hybrid of self-healing and tanking, and have defensive skills / self-buffs that dwarf ours, no pun intended, all in the name of medium armor. Yeah...we are good for spike damage and have engage for after-death recovery...but you guys are pretty OP in almost every other respect.

Originally Posted by disappearingone

Im not trying to be smart-aleck but how so with warden? RK is obviously DPS/healer hybrid. I know my class and we, Spear traited or not will never win a parse, or ever out heal any primary or secondary healers.

[With respect to my comment that Wardens are OP and a hybrid.]



Noting that I play one, too... Depending on how you play your Warden and how you have traited your toon, and what traits your javelin and melee weapon have:

• they have plenty of ranged damage -- I'll typically do between 1200-to-2000 damage on an equal level target before it can ever close on my Warden, before I even start melee
• they can stealth at opportune times (and, based on my own testing, their stealth level is as good -- if not better -- than my +9 stealth level Burglar, although the stealth is limited in duration
• they can tank just fine (although I will debate whether they can tank as well as a Guardian; in my personal experience, they're very close, but their issue is in originally gaining aggro)
• they heal themselves better than a Guardian heals itself

For solo work, they're numero uno, IMHO. For groups, they're very capable.

Soloing is not a role.

Let's NOT have another digression / derail about wardens not having Engage...wardens may indeed have trouble dealing with recovery of aggro after a death and maybe don't handle BG and/or serious spike dmg as well. We know these things -- however, many, many claims exist in other warden forum threads (and may indeed be correct), that they are better than guards in every other way.

That is far more substantive than the soloing "we are the fellowship" mantra, and the rejoinder above about it not being "role"...so please don't make light of the ample Dev-bestowed goodness in that class, in a never ending campaign for MORE, MORE, MORE ....ALL OF IT!

This thread was about champs anyway...a threat to both of our classes' given role.

Looks like my work here is done!




All joking aside, i still dont count warden as a hybrid for being able to solo like a mofo and can tank.

and any realist warden will admit that guards are better tanks in 12man's.

The dev's chose to put us, "at each others' throats" by design and via aligning us to directly compete for the same jobs (wardens and guards)...the best thing we can do instead is to UNITE, and together campaign for the destruction of all need / hope / reason / or capability for anything more than off-tanking by champs, more akin to what a captain is capable of presently.

Soooo tired of hearing the, "bring extra champs cuz tanks are fail" ego-pump dump, that issues forth from the nether regions used as mouths by some of those half-skilled bozos over there (as opposed to the respectful, fair and more realistic opinions expressed by other excellent players, who do also play the class).

HEAR, HEAR!!!!


KILL ALL CHAMPS!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOO!


...er, huh!?!?

I've never quite understood the e-peen driven rage directed at Guards by a lot of Forum Champs.

I personally find the class about as exciting as a blank A3 piece of paper, and don't feel that anything I can do as a Guardian comes close to stepping over their "Class Boundary", and definitely vice versa.

Wardens however, they're just a bunch of Cheatankers. Honestly, who throw's a stick? And if you want to mock a bunch of strange things dressed only in leather, you might want to think twice about whether you really should be playing an MMO.

DackRover,

Since the only poster between your previous post and my post was agreeing with you, I'll assume that your post directly below mine was a response to what I said. I apologize in advance for being blunt, but your tone is far from courteous and I'm mildly grumpy right now.

Originally Posted by DackRover

Let's NOT have another digression / derail about wardens not having Engage...wardens may indeed have trouble dealing with recovery of aggro after a death and maybe don't handle BG and/or serious spike dmg as well.

I fail to see how my comment related to wardens' tanking ability in any way.

We know these things -- however, many, many claims exist in other warden forum threads (and may indeed be correct), that they are better than guards in every other way.

Could you give an example of a way that a warden is viable and better than a guardian in any non-tanking group role?

That is far more substantive than the soloing "we are the fellowship" mantra that you brought up in the first place--are you trying to set up a red herring?, and the rejoinder above about it not being "role"... which you have not refuted. If wardens' ability to solo is at all relevent in this discussion, please elaborate on how a warden's ability to solo well assists them at end-game in any major way so please don't make light of the ample Dev-bestowed goodness in that class, in a never ending campaign for MORE, MORE, MORE ....ALL OF IT! This is a straw man. Asking for modifications to the class in no way means we want "all of it." Again, besides soloing and tanking what can wardens do better than other classes?

This thread was about champs anyway...a threat to both of our classes' given role.

Sure, let's go back to that.

Originally Posted by DackRover

Soooo tired of hearing the, "bring extra champs cuz tanks are fail" ego-pump dump, that issues forth from the nether regions used as mouths by some of those half-skilled bozos over there (as opposed to the respectful, fair and more realistic opinions expressed by other excellent players, who do also play the class).

You seem to be saying that people who acknowledge that farm-mode content can be accomplished faster with champion tanks are less skilled and less intelligent than people who express "more realistic opinions." This line of thinking confuses me. Do you dispute that content can be completed faster by running with champions rather than other tank classes? Do you believe that it takes less skill to keep a champion in Fervor alive than to heal a guardian or warden? What, exactly, do you mean by "more realistic opinions"?

I used to hate it when champions boasted about how they could tank all but the hardest content in the game and finish their runs faster than champions, but I realized that they're right. Granted, it takes above-average players and solid knowledge of what you're up against, but if you are able to run content with a champion tank it pays off to do so--you get it done faster. You can disagree with the way they present their case (namely, bragging about what they can do), but I find it hard to believe that you would reject their underlying message. They are right. They can tank all but the hardest content while traited and geared for DPS, and if speed is your priority they do it better than conventional tanks. It is a major problem, and calling those who profit from it "half-skilled bozos" doesn't change a thing.

Originally Posted by RusselDog

Wardens however, they're just a bunch of Cheatankers. Honestly, who throw's a stick? And if you want to mock a bunch of strange things dressed only in leather, you might want to think twice about whether you really should be playing an MMO.

real men don't need no heavy armor to tank.