And you're making yourself look like an elitist .... It's not a problem for my top tier raiding group, therefore it is not a problem. That is your argument (If you can even consider it one).
And you're making yourself look like an elitist .... It's not a problem for my top tier raiding group, therefore it is not a problem. That is your argument (If you can even consider it one).
You haven't been reading, huh?
That's not my argument, no. I've rationalized the respawn. I've reinforced that by bringing in my own personal experience. As I've said before, that's all I can speak on. Doing anything less would be a disservice to the discussion.
Now I do not think respawns are filtering out the weak. What is filtering out the weak is a refusal to take raiding seriously, to step up your game, to perform to a high level. The respawn is there, not as punishment, but as motivations, encouragement to do better. When my group got hit with respawn, the next time we went in, I was so focused on making sure it didn't happen again. It didn't. We improved, we progressed, and in most cases, beat the encounter.
I know not everyone is going to agree with what i said, but that's how I do see it.
That may be your opinion of it, but none of us knows precisely "Why" the respawn is there - why it was deliberately coded that way. You believe it was to motivate people to play better; others believe it was to artificially increase the length/learning curve of the raid or delay its inevitable completion. A third reason could be to discourage casual groups and funnel them into skirmishes. Neither of these opinions is any more valid than the others since we have no official word from Turbine as to the original intent of the respawns. But, it's really irrelevant - whatever motivation works for your group, more power to you.
That said, the "motivation to be better" doesn't fly with me because of all the ways to eat up time inside the raid that have absolutely nothing to do with skill, ability, or motivation. Wipes are one thing, and they're to be expected. But to punish groups who have the nerve to go link-dead, the audacity to crash to desktop... "Whoops, lag-tunnel, 5 seconds of skill lag... what, your tanks died? I hope you're more motivated next time!" That is inappropriate in my mind.
Ultimately I take issue with respawns because they take away freedom in a way that's not shared by any other multiboss raid: the freedom to take your time. The freedom to wipe a whole bunch of times while learning a boss and not lose your progress. The freedom to take along that particular minstrel who's ISP has a 5% chance of losing connection over the course of a raid. The freedom to keep trying for hard mode.
That's not my argument, no. I've rationalized the respawn. I've reinforced that by bringing in my own personal experience. As I've said before, that's all I can speak on. Doing anything less would be a disservice to the discussion.
So none of this addresses the reasons for why other raids have problems with the 3 hour respawn? Do I need to break it down? I think I might.
What is filtering out the weak is a refusal to take raiding seriously, to step up your game, to perform to a high level.
The weak? You realize you make yourself sound like an elitist here, right? I suppose resists and time constraints that restrict the ability to complete a lock within 3 hours are a consequence of being a player who does not take raiding seriously.
The respawn is there, not as punishment, but as motivations, encouragement to do better.
I think you need to take a course in Psychology. A "punishment" is a consequence. A motivation or encouragement would be related to what is called "reinforcement". According to a popular theory, there are two ways to improve bad behavior. One is positive punishment (the presence of a consequence; in this case a respawn) and the other is a negative reinforcement (the lack of a reward). A 3 hour respawn is clearly a punishment. If you want motivation, you tie in rewards to beating a lock within a time frame.
When my group got hit with respawn, the next time we went in, I was so focused on making sure it didn't happen again. It didn't. We improved, we progressed, and in most cases, beat the encounter.
You're again assuming that other raids are capable of adjusting at the rate Animus (a raid-focused kinship) does. What might make you take 4-5 wipes to finally adapt to a fight might take another group 5-6 wipes. Now the reason might be due to skill, intellect (things that should obviously be gates to completing a difficult encounter) or it could be due to the random nature of a RPG, a different class make-up, computer/internet problems, or even issues with the game (bugged fight) - NONE of which deal with "motivation" to be successful.
"and congrats on grd being godmode in MoM.....havnt seen much of you since....wonder why." - Puppydawg
The weak? You realize you make yourself sound like an elitist here, right? I suppose resists and time constraints that restrict the ability to complete a lock within 3 hours are a consequence of being a player who does not take raiding seriously.
The "weak" is not my language, but someone else's. I simply took their term to explain my point. I would not use the word "weak" but I wanted to be consistent with the discussion.
I think you need to take a course in Psychology. A "punishment" is a consequence. A motivation or encouragement would be related to what is called "reinforcement". According to a popular theory, there are two ways to improve bad behavior. One is positive punishment (the presence of a consequence; in this case a respawn) and the other is a negative reinforcement (the lack of a reward). A 3 hour respawn is clearly a punishment. If you want motivation, you tie in rewards to beating a lock within a time frame.
Motivation: win within the three hour window or you get nothing. I'd rather not have nothing. I'd rather have something. Thus I am motivated to victory.
You're again assuming that other raids are capable of adjusting at the rate Animus (a raid-focused kinship) does. What might make you take 4-5 wipes to finally adapt to a fight might take another group 5-6 wipes. Now the reason might be due to skill, intellect (things that should obviously be gates to completing a difficult encounter) or it could be due to the random nature of a RPG, a different class make-up, computer/internet problems, or even issues with the game (bugged fight) - NONE of which deal with "motivation" to be successful.
Obviously lock ups, link deads, extended afks due to RL are NOT part of the equation I'm talking about. Remove them. They're unessential.
Lack of skill, equivalent skill, greater skill, I don't think it matters. if you die 4 or 5 straight times, see no progress, then you need to re-think what you're doing. Going another 4 or 5 times, while it may induce some progress, I do not think it is something that should be done. I'll never do it, personally.
Motivation: win within the three hour window or you get nothing. I'd rather not have nothing. I'd rather have something. Thus I am motivated to victory.
I think you missed the point here. Regardless of what terminology you want to apply to the respawns; it's classified as a punishment. Defining victory as completing a lock within 3 hours is a false pretense. That might be a victory to you, but all it is is a convention for wanting to avoid a consequence (respawns).
Obviously lock ups, link deads, extended afks due to RL are NOT part of the equation I'm talking about. Remove them. They're unessential.
Why aren't they? Why does your attribution to a lack of skill take precedence and more weight in this debate? If you believe that Devs designed the 3 hour locks to exclusively gate efficiency related to skill, then they really are as shortsighted as some of the posters here are arguing.
Lack of skill, equivalent skill, greater skill, I don't think it matters. if you die 4 or 5 straight times, see no progress, then you need to re-think what you're doing.
And if you are making progress? Again, you're assuming that because your kinship only takes 4-5 tries to complete a fight, that it is the average amount of tries it takes to complete a fight. Some kins might take 6-7 tries, during each of which they make progress, albeit at a lower rate than what your kinship or what the "average kinship" (as defined by your suggestion that it shouldn't take more than 4-5 tries) requires to complete a fight.
Going another 4 or 5 times, while it may induce some progress, I do not think it is something that should be done. I'll never do it, personally.
I'm not even going to elaborate on this. With this statement, you just pointed out why you aren't even considering the situations of other raid groups.
"and congrats on grd being godmode in MoM.....havnt seen much of you since....wonder why." - Puppydawg
Obviously lock ups, link deads, extended afks due to RL are NOT part of the equation I'm talking about. Remove them. They're unessential.
Again, your elitism shining through. People have lives, emergencies etc. Turbine is putting a limit on the time you spend in there. It has no purpose except for making people play more days. It's a /fail.
I'm not even going to elaborate on this. With this statement, you just pointed out why you aren't even considering the situations of other raid groups.
I think you missed the point here. Regardless of what terminology you want to apply to the respawns; it's classified as a punishment. Defining victory as completing a lock within 3 hours is a false pretense. That might be a victory to you, but all it is is a convention for wanting to avoid a consequence (respawns).
You classify it punishment. Others do not.
Why aren't they? Why does your attribution to a lack of skill take precedence and more weight in this debate? If you believe that Devs designed the 3 hour locks to exclusively gate efficiency related to skill, then they really are as shortsighted as some of the posters here are arguing.
Why? Because they're not common. Personally speaking, when I commit time to a raid, I make sure I'm there for the time block, however long that is. RL stuff happens and they're replaced before the raid occurs. In my experience it's very rare to hold up the raid - mid session - for 30 minutes or whatever because this occurs.
And if you are making progress? Again, you're assuming that because your kinship only takes 4-5 tries to complete a fight, that it is the average amount of tries it takes to complete a fight. Some kins might take 6-7 tries, during each of which they make progress, albeit at a lower rate than what your kinship or what the "average kinship" (as defined by your suggestion that it shouldn't take more than 4-5 tries) requires to complete a fight.
If you are? Be proud of your accomplishment. If you want to keep going, re-clear trash; or pick up where you left off the next night. Adapt and move forward.
I'm not even going to elaborate on this. With this statement, you just pointed out why you aren't even considering the situations of other raid groups.
I've always maintained that I cannot speak for other raid groups, only my own. I do not disregard them nor put mine on a pedestal. Their feedback is wanted, as is everyone's. I'm just stating my opinion, my own situation. If I commented on their situation I would be doing the discussion a disservice.
Not insulting you, just pointing out you're being shortsighted in this instance. Again, you don't argue. You say my group this, therefore that. Everyone can see it.
We can dance around this all you want. If you don't clear the lock in 3 hours, you must restart. If you do clear it, then nothing special happens.
That's defined as punishment.
Any "motivation" or "victory" felt from avoiding that punishment is self-induced. I don't know any raiders who hold their head up high and say, "We did it!" in relation to clearing a lock before respawns. Most just continue and accept that they did the raid without failing (which is what you're supposed to do).
Why? Because they're not common. Personally speaking, when I commit time to a raid, I make sure I'm there for the time block, however long that is. RL stuff happens and they're replaced before the raid occurs. In my experience it's very rare to hold up the raid - mid session - for 30 minutes or whatever because this occurs.
Great. Now we're back to the part where you extrapolate personal experiences to the entire raiding community. Sure, this environment is typical for what is defined for a hardcore raiding kinship, but what about the general raiding demographic, the one that Turbine aims to please with non-HM Boss fights.
If you are? Be proud of your accomplishment. If you want to keep going, re-clear trash; or pick up where you left off the next night. Adapt and move forward.
I think you missed the point. Why is progress interrupted at 3 hours? The timer is arbitrary. Why are there so many players who have stopped raiding or are discouraged from raiding because of the 3 hour limit? Do you think it would be the same if it was 6 hours? What about 1.5 hours? The point is that the 3 hours is placing restrictions that many believe shouldn't be in a raid that is already moderately difficult and time consuming.
I've always maintained that I cannot speak for other raid groups, only my own. I do not disregard them nor put mine on a pedestal. Their feedback is wanted, as is everyone's. I'm just stating my opinion, my own situation. If I commented on their situation I would be doing the discussion a disservice.
Going another 4 or 5 times, while it may induce some progress, I do not think it is something that should be done.
When you use the word "should" in relation to how another group chooses to spend their time in a raid, you convey a different message.
"and congrats on grd being godmode in MoM.....havnt seen much of you since....wonder why." - Puppydawg
We can dance around this all you want. If you don't clear the lock in 3 hours, you must restart. If you do clear it, then nothing special happens.
That's defined as punishment.
Any "motivation" or "victory" felt from avoiding that punishment is self-induced. I don't know any raiders who hold their head up high and say, "We did it!" in relation to clearing a lock before respawns. Most just continue and accept that they did the raid without failing (which is what you're supposed to do).
Acquiring loot is nothing special? News to me.
Great. Now we're back to hte part where you extrapolate personal experiences to the entire raiding community. Sure, this environment is typical for what is defined for a hardcore raiding kinship, but what about the general raiding demographic, the one that Turbine aims to please with non-HM Boss fights.
Hardly. It's my own experiences. What you make out of them is up to you - and everyone else.
I think you missed the point. Why is progress interrupted at 3 hours? The timer is arbitrary. Why are there so many players who have stopped raiding or are discouraged from raiding because of the 3 hour limit? Do you think it would be the same if it was 6 hours? What about 1.5 hours? The point is that the 3 hours is placing restrictions that many believe shouldn't be in a raid that is already moderately difficult and time consuming.
I won't go over my speculated reasons for why. Ultimately only Turbine can tell you. I just offer my own opinion: the only thing I can do.
When you use the word "should" in relation to how another group chooses to spend their time in a raid, you convey a different message.
Just my non-binding, non-authoritative opinion. If you read deeper into it than intended, more power to ya.
Way to misread and, further, make a quip out of it. We're talking relative to the 3 hour timer. Whether you complete the lock within 3 hours or 6, the rewards will be the same (assuming randomization doesn't vary the contents of each chest).
You don't get bonus rewards for completing a lock within 3 hours. If you don't complete it within 3 hours, you're punished with a respawn. That respawn leads to extra gold spent, time spent, etc.
"and congrats on grd being godmode in MoM.....havnt seen much of you since....wonder why." - Puppydawg
Way to misread and, further, make a quip out of it. We're talking relative to the 3 hour timer. Whether you complete the lock within 3 hours or 6, the rewards will be the same (assuming randomization doesn't vary the contents of each chest).
You don't get bonus rewards for completing a lock within 3 hours. If you don't complete it within 3 hours, you're punished with a respawn. That respawn leads to extra gold spent, time spent, etc.
The time frame doesn't matter. What matters is the completion. You accept the restrictions, and motivate yourself to accomplish your goal within those restrictions.
The time frame doesn't matter. What matters is the completion. You accept the restrictions, and motivate yourself to accomplish your goal within those restrictions.
I actually thought you were smart for a brief time.
You know.. they could remove the trash respawn and add a 1-2% damage buff to the boss every time the raid wipes. In a way, if you want to fight with no buff, you have to reform and clear trash again. Or you know if you don't make good progress it will get ugly ahead.
It would have a similar effect, if you wipe too much maybe you should think more before giving it another try. But then.. it comes back to the first argument, there is no point in putting constraints on buggy encounters or making them tied to luck.
Obviously lock ups, link deads, extended afks due to RL are NOT part of the equation I'm talking about. Remove them. They're unessential.
Oh but they are, and why shouldn't they be? They happen, and from my experience, more frequently than you can hope for, or control. If a variable presents itself, even only a few times, why not throw it into the equation isn't that what thorough and effective planning incurs?
Originally Posted by rawlingsst7
That said, the "motivation to be better" doesn't fly with me because of all the ways to eat up time inside the raid that have absolutely nothing to do with skill, ability, or motivation. Wipes are one thing, and they're to be expected. But to punish groups who have the nerve to go link-dead, the audacity to crash to desktop... "Whoops, lag-tunnel, 5 seconds of skill lag... what, your tanks died? I hope you're more motivated next time!" That is inappropriate in my mind.
+1.
Who here remembers fun? Put your hand up.
I get your arguments about motivation, and learning, and progression Sav, but quite frankly, this is a pastime for most of us, and something that we turn to for FUN. Chaining game strats like corruption management and eye debuffs are great for linking content, and creating progression - but a time limit is quite simply, like Jenith said, simply another gate. And it takes the fun out of the game.
Find another way to motivate me to do this raid, because frankly - I've lost hours of my time and effort to the damn time limit, and that frustrates both myself and my raiders and ultimately kills the raiding experience in this game.
Nobody in this thread is asking to have challenge, or motivation taken out of the game. We love it, hell, you've got representatives from the few remaining raiding kinships left alive after this expansion in here. We're simply trying to express that if the time limit is SUPPOSED to be the motivation, well, Turbine's doing it wrong.
Oh but they are, and why shouldn't they be? They happen, and from my experience, more frequently than you can hope for, or control. If a variable presents itself, even only a few times, why not throw it into the equation isn't that what thorough and effective planning incurs?
Who here remembers fun? Put your hand up.
I get your arguments about motivation, and learning, and progression Sav, but quite frankly, this is a pastime for most of us, and something that we turn to for FUN. Chaining game strats like corruption management and eye debuffs are great for linking content, and creating progression - but a time limit is quite simply, like Jenith said, simply another gate. And it takes the fun out of the game.
Find another way to motivate me to do this raid, because frankly - I've lost hours of my time and effort to the damn time limit, and that frustrates both myself and my raiders and ultimately kills the raiding experience in this game.
Nobody in this thread is asking to have challenge, or motivation taken out of the game. We love it, hell, you've got representatives from the few remaining raiding kinships left alive after this expansion in here. We're simply trying to express that if the time limit is SUPPOSED to be the motivation, well, Turbine's doing it wrong.
Exactly. +1
"and congrats on grd being godmode in MoM.....havnt seen much of you since....wonder why." - Puppydawg
Why? Because they're not common. Personally speaking, when I commit time to a raid, I make sure I'm there for the time block, however long that is. RL stuff happens and they're replaced before the raid occurs. In my experience it's very rare to hold up the raid - mid session - for 30 minutes or whatever because this occurs.
Yeah, like Mav says. You have no problems if you just exclude a few small demographic groups from your raids. Like Parents and people with AT&T DSL .
Wouldnt it make a more coherent instance if the gauntlet was ended by a big Uruk leader and his big Warg pet. Maybe make it a fight like a troll/trollkeeper on level 65 steroids? Then -tada- have a box with some loot and a lock. No more gauntlet this week. It makes alot more sense than to have killing armors end the gauntlet.
The trash on the way up to the twins similarly needs to be more dynamic like the gauntlet. How did this keep go from active defense to static? Spread the sorcerer/warg pairs out and have patrolling armors like the uruks/wargs in the guantlet. Have a head Sorcerer and another big warg at the end to stop gauntlet 2 and have a box with some rewards.
If you are going to put time limits then dont pretend. Just make each lock a timed quest when you hit the end have everyone cower, Glath can say something ominous like "the eye has spotted you, all is lost" in your head and throw everyone back to the start.
Last edited by dhatcher1; Mar 15 2010 at 07:58 PM.
respawns taken in isolation can be fairly harmless but i think looking at the bigger context they need to be removed or adjusted.
everyone will know i've never been just interested in a raid that caters to my kinship... thats why I will press issues even if my group is not struggling with them.
At the same time people should not give their power over to turbine. We all know the dynamics involved and can expect certain issues with BG so for sanity sake should adjust approach.
I am concerned LT normal mode will be too hard and I do think the respawn timers are contrived.
Some groups have been doing 4hour sessions for a long time, whereas 3hours is max for others.
Setting respawns to 3hours was a mistake.
Gauntlet should be extended out to an hour. Beyond that re-running shouldnt be a big deal especially compared to how long trash from lock1 in other instances takes.
My money is on turbine smoothing BG out once next cluster is released.
Secondly, the respawn timer has been brutal to my casual raiding kin. We've got the gauntlet down, but the sorcerer pulls between Durchest and the Twins are much harder, and wipes are common, especially as we don't have a static group from week to week. Thus, we often enter the Twins without time for many attempts before we get respawns, and are discouraged from taking much time to reconsider either that fight or the late trash pulls, since we've already started the timer for respawns below. Nor can we step away for a long break after a couple hours of hacking our way through the trash.
This, coupled with the horrible loot on what we have completed (and the knowledge that little better awaits us) has been very discouraging, and we have previously dedicated raiders declaring that they don't have many more BG attempts in them.
We are a casual raiding kin, but we have cleared every previous raid (Rift, Helegrod, DN) on level. I think that the respawns have widened the gap between the elite raiding kins and the rest of us, since they greatly increase the cost of wipes and make it much harder to learn boss fights.
Start LT encounter: Get volcano icon (High Server Load). Fellbeast picks a person with an eye. 10 seconds later he flies up and drops a puddle. I love buggy Encounters. *Salute (Oh and AF+GE never went on when I used CB).
Originally Posted by KazeKami
I've had this happen to my raid and there was no High server load icon. Started fight, put eye up, moved a few steps, breathed fire, moved a few more steps, and then flew up. We had barley put 40k damage on him and we had 2 hunters and 2 rks. Was the weirdest thing I've ever seen.
Just to go back to the original bug posted about by Roov and then commented upon later by someone else who saw it, I *might* have something useful to say about that.
In our early LT runs, we noticed that the LT's initial flight didn't appear to be timed according to the start of the encounter/his initial speech. Rather, the static timer for when he first takes off appears to start when the first person in the raid enters the room (I don't remember the timing exactly, sorry). However, the speech text that officially begins the encounter doesn't start until the entire raid is in the room. And you can have a varying amount of time between the first person entering and the last person entering.
This means that, if one person enters and there's a long time delay (several seconds) between that initial entry and the last person scooting into the room to trigger the start of the encounter speech, the raid will have the LT on the ground for a shorter period of time. The several seconds between the first and last entry ticked down time when the LT would be on the ground.
We watched this happen a few times and now avoid it from happening by doing a countdown and having everyone enter the room at the same time. Haven't seen the LT leave the ground prematurely since. It doesn't explain the interaction between the bug and the server load but for those who see the bug regardless of load, this might help.
Now, if someone figures out how to survive a minstrel getting the green eye/feared into the pet during phase 2, I'd be most appreciative.
Our group hasnt had that problem with the LT,but then again we've only fought him once and we had somebody get that nice yellow eye/fear combo. I'm sure now that this bug has been mentioned we'll run into it too.
The respawn topic has been beaten to death but it still kills the raiding fun for us too. We havent been in BG all that much,so while we're trying to learn the boss encounters (and HM's,by accident sometimes) it can be pretty frustrating being pressured into doing something rather quickly. If we have to move a bit quicker because people have to leave at a certain time thats fine,but not when the game itself is forcing you along. Its pretty disheartening when you're try to learn something,just to get the msg about the gauntlet respawning,or knowing that you're just counting down to see mobs reappear.
Most of us didnt think much of DN,but its infinitely better than BG,if only for the fact that you had less trash,it didnt respawn,and the gear was actually decent for some people. This new stuff almost seems to be trash across the board.
Respawn = Clever way to get us to do the raid more. Sad, but clever.
I don't even think it's all that clever. It's as contrived as the slog through the elite guards in Dungeons, the endless final boss fight in Warg Pens, or the trash pulls in SG, where a resist (now where have I been hearing about those recently) can mean a wipe.
You know what I did yesterday? I made a hunter. Leveled it to 15. Realized that casual alt play is more fun than yet more skirmishes or yet another run through SG hoping that a ticket to the LI lottery drops. (We had a Symbol drop in SG last night, too...I didn't even care that I didn't win the roll.)
At this point, the worst part about all of this is the lack of communication from Turbine. You'd think they would want to implement some kind of damage control when a bulk of the heavier raiders have so many perpetuating gripes about the instance: glaring issues and not-fun factors, kins coming apart at the seams, etc... Not to mention that 90% or more of the threads on BG are negative (typical forum protocol, but still).
Some type of dev diary would have been nice - this raid is so "different" from any of its predecessors...we can't think they didn't know that. Coupling that with the essential removal of the radiance gate (now a grind, face it) it's the whole "come on in everybody....and good luck, suckers!" that will indeed allow the numbers to show that opening up raiding to all has done nothing good for raiding.
Inviting your entire player base into the raid and then making it....like "this" is just mind boggling. Truly. How can we not think it's either conspiracy theory material or a total lack of dev competence. Too many dropped balls to think otherwise IMO.
The "weak" is not my language, but someone else's. I simply took their term to explain my point. I would not use the word "weak" but I wanted to be consistent with the discussion.
I'll take credit for introducing the word "weak" to this discussion, in the context of what you confirmed to see as an evolutionary process: respawns "make you a better raider" by forcing you to step up your game. The flipside of that, of course, is that all the people who don't do that, or can't, or are trying to but continue to be discouraged by issues beyond their control, are being naturally selected right out of the population. They're quitting BG, raiding in general, and/or the game entirely. It's my opinion that the negative effect that's having on our community is far more important than this supposed positive evolutionary effect that apparantly only you are able to see.
Now, on to encouragement vs. punishment.
Respawns are undeniably punishing in nature, in that a negative effect (loss of all progress) is levied upon the player for failure to meet a condition (Kill boss within 3 hours), and this condition is over & above the normal success condition present in every other raid (simply, Kill boss). It sets the default state/minimum performance level that all raids must meet or be forced to start over at the beginning of the lock again.
Encouragement to meet the [3 hour time limit] condition could be done in a positive manner, in the form of a quest: "Kill the Twins of Fire & Shadow in 3 Hours; reward: IXP/DP/etc." This would give groups the option to push themselves harder in order to meet that objective and claim the additional reward, while still allowing a more casual group to take their time.
The BG Challenge modes are a perfect example of positive reinforcement at work: The default state/minimum performance level is "Kill the boss," but we are presented with the opportunity to make things more difficult in return for the promise of additional reward. Groups are therefore encouraged to go above & beyond to complete the hard modes, even though they are by no means a requirement.
Likewise, I would say that BG doesn't "Encourage perfect execution" as much as it "Discourages imperfect execution" - just look at the boss defeat response mechanics. Each player death increases the likelihood of additional deaths and an eventual wipe. We don't see bonus loot for killing a boss with no deaths, but we do see increased difficulty if a death occurs. And trash respawns on a hard timer mean any wipes on trash, or even delays because of a few deaths and the associated rezzing/buffing, directly correspond to decreased time spent learning/fighting the boss before having to start over.
Originally Posted by Magian
Obviously lock ups, link deads, extended afks due to RL are NOT part of the equation I'm talking about. Remove them. They're unessential.
I would remove them if I could, but you know and I know that they are a part of the game and are not going anywhere. Therefore it is silly not to consider them as a factor contributing to frustration and discouragement when up against an arbitrary time limit. Maybe not for your group, but for other groups, absolutely.
Likewise, I would say that BG doesn't "Encourage perfect execution" as much as it "Discourages imperfect execution" - just look at the boss defeat response mechanics. Each player death increases the likelihood of additional deaths and an eventual wipe. We don't see bonus loot for killing a boss with no deaths, but we do see increased difficulty if a death occurs. And trash respawns on a hard timer mean any wipes on trash, or even delays because of a few deaths and the associated rezzing/buffing, directly correspond to decreased time spent learning/fighting the boss before having to start over.
You must spread some reputation around before giving it to rawlingsst7 again.
I don't even think it's all that clever. It's as contrived as the slog through the elite guards in Dungeons, the endless final boss fight in Warg Pens, or the trash pulls in SG, where a resist (now where have I been hearing about those recently) can mean a wipe.
You know what I did yesterday? I made a hunter. Leveled it to 15. Realized that casual alt play is more fun than yet more skirmishes or yet another run through SG hoping that a ticket to the LI lottery drops. (We had a Symbol drop in SG last night, too...I didn't even care that I didn't win the roll.)
Of course it's not clever. I'm being facetious. It's downright insulting. So are the elite guards. Here's 40k worth of morale, enjoy beating it down ever so slowly. Oh did we mention there's a miniknockback.. lul. Anyway, Bg has touched my final nerve. I'd rather easy mode on my warg.
I don't even think it's all that clever. It's as contrived as the slog through the elite guards in Dungeons, the endless final boss fight in Warg Pens, or the trash pulls in SG, where a resist (now where have I been hearing about those recently) can mean a wipe.
You know what I did yesterday? I made a hunter. Leveled it to 15. Realized that casual alt play is more fun than yet more skirmishes or yet another run through SG hoping that a ticket to the LI lottery drops. (We had a Symbol drop in SG last night, too...I didn't even care that I didn't win the roll.)
Sol really has this nailed...maybe my baby LM or champ can play w/ your hunter tonite.... At least it would beat farming fior scrolls or cooking.
I am usually a fanboi here. I have been here since the very beginning, and done just about everything in the game (I even did all the Angmar quests at level on my 3rd toon just to do some hard stuff). I have been a loyal player who logs in whenever my wife and kids allow. Heck, my guard has over 4 months /played time (Froggie).
As a "casual" raider, I have cleared everything in the game ecept the Lt. I can't even drum up the interest from 11 other kinfolk to run BG right now. Last Friday (main raid night), we had plenty of folks on (and we have cleared to the Lt. many times). We could not even get 12 people who wanted to go. Its just too buggy, we are too sick of spending endless hours clearing too much respawning trash (mindless and boring), and its impossible to do the fun bits (HM) because when we are finally learning after 3-4 wipes + discussion etc. of what we could do next time, the bloody trash respawns and we have to start from scratch. Don't even get me started on the door bug. No one wants to do the raid because it is not a learning experience, its just a head bash contest with trash. I don't even know if they fixed the bugged warg--if not, that's one auto wipe just to get to the twins.
Sure it may be a "gate" or something to do it this way, but if we can't muster the desire to do it, I virtually guarantee that almost no one will except the super elite, and even many of them are not happy with this raid. We could beat the thing I am sure, but I for one have no desire to keep beating my head on the wall on so much trash and fairly uncreative buggy bosses.
I love raiding; but BG just stinks. Skirmishes were fun (for a while--especially the 12 mans), but they have grown tiresome and repetitive. I still run SG, not because its fun after 150 runs, but because it drops a symbol for one of us, Dungeons is just unfair unless you have a burg, then its trivial, SH is about as much fun as farming mint leaves, and about as challenging, WP is ok; but again, ****** loot really only requiring you to repeatedly farm the first boss for cloaks, and I could only handle that place about 50 times before I got very sick of it. The Moors is unbalanced and I am either useless (grd), a total target (mini) or nerfed (burglar) there now. Its also very, very stale (the creeps have even named all the rocks in the landcape by now).
Then there are the developer stealth nerfs. Resists and decreased threat on skills...I can't even go into that right now.
Turbine needs to step this up, or they are going to lose all their non-really-casual players.
No I am not leaving, and no you can't have my stuff...but turbine should know that a very old kinship and a bunch of very old players who have run every instance in the game; are all playing less, don't bother with their raid, and can't decide whether to surf Helegrod or the Rift because we are bored with endgame (we could not agree so did some 12 man skirmishes, but those are getting quite old now).
I don't see how the respawns benefit anyone except for the devs who created and released Mirkwood with about the same end-game instance content as v2 bk 8 had. The players don't enjoy it: the more elite raiding kins are annoyed by it when something goes wrong, and the more casual players are frequently stymied by it. It does draw the content out, and thereby provide a bit of cover for just how little end-game content there was in Mirkwood, and just how badly much of the loot sucks. After all, if players are still working to beat BG (or on the hard modes) they might be distracted from thinking about what a hollow expansion Mirkwood was.
I don't see how the respawns benefit anyone except for the devs who created and released Mirkwood with about the same end-game instance content as v2 bk 8 had. The players don't enjoy it: the more elite raiding kins are annoyed by it when something goes wrong, and the more casual players are frequently stymied by it.
But Mavery likes it, so it's A-Okay! It artificially inflates the little content that they have. It has no other purpose. End of story.
I actually thought of the real reason for it. I assume that people were keeping instances open by leaving a player in it therefore never having to reclear the trash if they want an attempt at the boss the next day. This prevents it but the timer is too short IMO (for this line of reasoning to work). I would say 6 hours.
Wow, kins breaking under the pressure of trash and respawn timers... Better hope they don't add a really difficult gimmic like only getting a 1 hour shot at the end boss once per lockout, the playerbase may implode.
Having recently switched from another game to LotRO, I guess the anger over respawn timers is a bit strange, as such devices are standard in some mmos.
Usually the respawn timers are tied to a boss, kill the boss and none of the trash leading up to them will respawn during that lockout, is that not the case in BG? However, usually the trash also has a small chance of dropping decent loot, such as Symbols or crafting patterns only available in the raid, so extra shot's at trash aren't a complete waste.
LotRO seems to have a more casual tone overall, so such a standard feature may not work so well here. Add to the playerbase the way loot is dropped here and trash respawns can certainly be frustrating for many.
Oh and yea, squash the bugs!
"Even though I've been a stranger, full of irony and spite, Holding little but contempt for all things beautiful and bright, Something shines around you, and it seems to my delight, To give me, just a little sweetness...Just a little Light”
They don't call me The Orkin Guard for nothin' ya know!
"Even though I've been a stranger, full of irony and spite, Holding little but contempt for all things beautiful and bright, Something shines around you, and it seems to my delight, To give me, just a little sweetness...Just a little Light”
The sad part about this whole conversation is that nobody who matters is listening anymore...
Perhaps a dev might read this, but even if they do I think the message is very clear from them - Either they have orders from high above to stall this game as far as progress until further notice OR there isn't enough devs around right now to tackle many of these bugs...
hence the cold shoulder BG (and many of our posts) are getting from the devs
Gambit Lieutenant of the Black Company - Forgotten Land of Tarew Marr
Last of the Ravaging Knights - 59th Meridian, 103rd Division
The sad thing to me is that there is a lot to like in BG too. Gauntlet is cool. They got the boss difficulty progression right, unlike DN. Lt 2.0 is not quite Thaurlach, but it isn't a letdown like the Mistress either. All three boss fights are more fun than anything in DN except the Blind One. The spaces are more visually appealing (unlike DN, which pretty much looked like Dark Delvings). About half of the trash mobs (sorcs, wargs, armored undead dudes) have moderately interesting mechanics (or would if not for the bugs).
But as a former kinmate of mine once said after a Watcher PuG wipe, there's not enough win to cancel out the suck:
1) too much trash
2) mind-numbingly awful time-sinks like the undead swarms and guldur lights
3) respawn timer too short
4) too many bugs
5) melee/ranged balance in Lt 1.0; to their credit, they fixed this, but gave us:
6) yellow eye + fear in Lt 2.0
7) fail loot
i agree
there is much i prefer in BG over DN, even rift, shock horror.
but polish and frustrating mechanics hinder it from being the success it could be. this does impact me personally even tho my kin is doing fine in BG because a raid that isnt successful means less pugs which i like todo with alts.
with the weak loot it was always going to need to be more fun and polished than any other raid imo, surely the devs saw that before release.
i agree
there is much i prefer in BG over DN, even rift, shock horror.
but polish and frustrating mechanics hinder it from being the success it could be. this does impact me personally even tho my kin is doing fine in BG because a raid that isnt successful means less pugs which i like todo with alts.
with the weak loot it was always going to need to be more fun and polished than any other raid imo, surely the devs saw that before release.
It's sad, really, because BG could be a lot of fun if there had been ample time to polish it, work out the bugs, balance the encounters, and playtest the heck out of it to maximize enjoyment. IIRC DN was pushed back from Book 7 release because of all the bugs/exploits in the Moria cluster, and the extra 3 months of work really, really showed. DN at Bk8 release was pretty polished. I can't remember any specific changes made to it in patches since then, other than the Mistress hitting harder. (Although I could come up with a very short list of improvements that could be made now, to elements that were affected by the SoM combat/stat changes.)
I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that I'd rather wait a book and get a finished, polished product rather than get it right this second in a late-beta state. I know they must have been rushed to push this thing out the door because the 5 level raise (probably mandated by management as the only way to justify a paid expansion) pretty much required an end-game raid of some sort, and we as a community had been crying foul for having nothing but lair raids for the first 6 months of Moria. No BG at launch = no end game instance content other than SG/SH/WP/Dung. Fail. (also, heh, dung. fitting.)
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Originally Posted by Magian
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and people with AT&T DSL 
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. At least it would beat farming fior scrolls or cooking. 
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