Thread: Just putting this out there. (Radiance + LI)

Originally Posted by Fredelas

Also, since there are some honestly brilliant ideas here, make sure you copy those into your posts on the relevant "Tell the Devs" thread. If any of this information gets summarized for the executives, I'd wager it's the feedback in those threads.

How is one thread or forum section relevant over the others???

A complaint is a complaint. Dissatisfaction is dissatisfaction. The devs and moderators read the forums and pass on any info they feel necessary. Forum police are lame.

Originally Posted by Grodo

How is one thread or forum section relevant over the others???

A complaint is a complaint. Dissatisfaction is dissatisfaction. The devs and moderators read the forums and pass on any info they feel necessary. Forum police are lame.

I'm just saying, if the moderators take anything from these forums and tally up the responses for their bosses, it is probably the "Tell the Community Team" threads they've been doing recently. It's great that there's a worthwhile discussion in this thread, but it certainly can't hurt to get these good suggestions into the Community Team's weekly surveys, too.

I for one am still waiting for the system that was originally announced, where we could receive one weapon to GROW WITH US in our travels..

Instead, we got some homeless Goblin standing on the corner selling lottery tickets, playing 3 card monty and the shell game all on one fold-up card table, nary a cop in sight.

Don't like that one? Go out and grind for another pal! /fail

Just my 2 cents here. My kin has about 60 players in it (not character, players). The majority are lifetime subs. Since SoM came out, I am still on every day, but there are only 6 or seven other kinmates that log in any more. This is not a unique situation, let's be real. This is happening to kins all over. But those "missing" kinnies are still "active subscribers" according to statistics - hey, who knows, they might play in another month.

On the other hand, it appears to me (but I dont KNOW this) that most of the loudest voices against the current radiance and LI systems are lifers. I would submit that most currently active players are not SoA vets, and to them, this system isn't a failed promise, but rather just part of the game -and therefore more palatable.

For myself, I'm not a lifer or SoA vet, and I think the LI and Rad systems are embarrasingly poorly thought out, but I wont shut my multiple accounts down over it, because the game is still fun. I just dont really care about LIs. If i get a good one, great, if not, thats ok too.

I don't feel entitled to have the "uber" of everything, just because it may theoretically exist in the game. The PvE content is so easy already it doesnt add fun to it, and the PvP is so lopsided it hardly help, so until fixed, I remain utterly ambivalent to it.

I totally hate Rad and LI too.

I thought that considering the continued flurry of Ask The Community, that the premise of the original post I made still seems relevant. They are asking questions that have blatantly obvious answers; it just seems that whoever is in control of the "yes/no" or "go/no go" decision just won't let go of a failed idea. Instead, the rest are forced to simply try to show by /handraise of the community, just how wrong The Decider is.

So, rather than make a new thread saying exactly that, I bumped this one. More efficient, you know. Kinda like Sword Halls vs. the other token runs, except without all the grind and failure.

Eh, I will chime in here as well.

As to your main point TSK, it looks like you think that there is someone in authority who will not let these systems go. I am not sure this is true, but it is certainly a possibility. Let me toss out one or two other possibilities.

1) The systems are so entrenched in the game, that it would be difficult to remove them from the game. This means they need to make them work somehow.

2) Turbine thinks people like these systems (based on revenue, partly jacked up because of lifetime sub money) and they are looking for ways to grow them and improve them.

Personally... I think it is a combination of all 3.

Radiance gating could easily be removed from its current implementation, and I think it should be.

Legendary Items in some ways I really enjoy, and in some ways I really hate. I think the thing I like about them is that it gives you a tangible way to improve your character. The things I hate about it is that YOU have no control over that improvement other than collecting as many lottery tickets as possible. The other thing I hate about it is that they balance the content it seems for ALL the legacies. I don't want to need +10% healing and motivation on my songbook otherwise the raid wipes. I want to get a 10% cushion because I built my character that way.

Anyway, I think most people are in a similar mindset as me. Some things about LIs they like, or they like the original concept. However the lottery is terrible, and was NOT made better as we all had hoped by SoM (the legacy tier lottery was fixed, the legacy choice lottery was actually made worse I believe as well as the grind).

Originally Posted by Magian

People may whine and complain but that doesn't make it a fail system.

LIs are a fail, but not just because people complain about them. As implemented they are no more legendary than cans and bottles left laying in the street for someone in the future to come along and take to the recycling center. If implemented as initially announced you would have received your starter LI and been able to improve it as you level to turn it into a unique legendary item matching your playstyle. There was a huge disparity between concept and implementation, that is fail.

Please read BearPi's post above and I wont rant about how bad the randomness was implemented.

Originally Posted by dhatcher1

LIs are a fail, but not just because people complain about them. As implemented they are no more legendary than cans and bottles left laying in the street for someone in the future to come along and take to the recycling center. If implemented as initially announced you would have received your starter LI and been able to improve it as you level to turn it into a unique legendary item matching your playstyle. There was a huge disparity between concept and implementation, that is fail.

Please read BearPi's post above and I wont rant about how bad the randomness was implemented.

Implemented as announced was never going to work. That's why we have what we do. You can scream all you want, but implementing a system for weapons - one that truly grows with you - that does not 'force' you to obtain new weapons, is unhealthy for the game, in terms of content and in-game economy.

The LI system is a resounding success because of the work required to get that good, and in some cases, perfect LI. it is a time sink that keeps us busy.

It is artificial content, but it gives us something to do. The aforementioned announced implementation would not do this. There would be boredom and burnout at an accelerated rate - something that is very bad for the game.

We also need to drop this whole semantic thing about 'legendary.' That's just the lore label for it. In terms of gameplay implementation - what we're talking about here - it is no more than a fancy.

Lastly, the randomness is fine. Even hardcore players (well, not all) are still looking for the optimum weapon. That is a success. Things to do = good. Nothing to do = bad.

Originally Posted by Magian

Implemented as announced was never going to work. That's why we have what we do.

You are SO wrong. Let me explain. No, there is too much, let me sum up.

The LI system failed to deliver on the promise which was a fantastic idea. A weapon that levels as you level, and progresses as you progress. It made the MMO gamer in all of us salivate.

Your explain that the announced method was never going to work because of....... crafting? Crafting?? Seriously, CRAFTING?! Crafting has been murdered by what they actually implemented, but certainly the current LI system did nothing to HELP.

The LI system is a resounding success.... It is artificial content

I'm sorry, but those two statements just cannot go in a single post, if it is to maintain any semblance of logical structure. Please explain.

We also need to drop this whole semantic thing about 'legendary.' That's just the lore label for it. In terms of gameplay implementation - what we're talking about here - it is no more than a fancy.

If it was just a label, then the devs would not have consistently sold it to us as being actually LEGENDARY GEAR.

Lastly, the randomness is fine. Even hardcore players (well, not all) are still looking for the optimum weapon. That is a success. Things to do = good. Nothing to do = bad.

Things to do should have been trying to unlock more mystery or lore from the weapon I have been slaying with.... Not scouring through thousands of ****** swords on a dungheap in Angmar.

For BearPi:

I don't actually disagree with your other two hypotheses, they could certainly be valid. From my one experience I shared, it rings so true with how my example went down.

I just think that the offering of blatantly obvious questions - and equally obvious answers - steams of a huge pile of "I want to get my way, no matter how much of a failure I am" from some bigwig at Turbine, who has too much $$$ but still is too short for both the ladies and the bright red Ferrari he bought for himself on Thursday.

To The One Responsible For the Steaming Failure of LI + Radiance:

You are fooling nobody, man: the ladies don't dig your combover, the nerds think you are a dork, and your money can't hide your stupidity. Give up now. Your new career in the food-service industry awaits you.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

You are SO wrong. Let me explain. No, there is too much, let me sum up.

The LI system failed to deliver on the promise which was a fantastic idea. A weapon that levels as you level, and progresses as you progress. It made the MMO gamer in all of us salivate.

Your explain that the announced method was never going to work because of....... crafting? Crafting?? Seriously, CRAFTING?! Crafting has been murdered by what they actually implemented, but certainly the current LI system did nothing to HELP.

Did you even read what I wrote? I never once typed the word 'crafting.' I said "content and in-game economy." This could include crafting but is not limited to it.

To ensure there is no confusion, I did not mean crafting at all. Disposable items (weapons, armour, jewellery, consumables etc) are very important, not just to the economy, but proper itemization and balance. If you aren't forced to continually get new weapons, the game stagnates.

When we get to new expansions, new raids, I want to have an opportunity for that brand new, insane weapon. I can't do that if my first age from Moria grew with me. I already have 'the best' so what more can you offer me? It was a fail concept.

I'm sorry, but those two statements just cannot go in a single post, if it is to maintain any semblance of logical structure. Please explain.

To the narrow-minded perhaps.

LI's were always meant as an end game activity. They are nothing more than a time sink and grind. For that reason I call it artificial content - but it is content all the same.

Players being occupied for a system that is meant to keep that busy is a resounding success.

If it was just a label, then the devs would not have consistently sold it to us as being actually LEGENDARY GEAR.

They used it for successful marketing. It's the same reason there is "epic gear" in other games. It's a name that identifies with a mechanic that makes it sound better than it actually is.

Things to do should have been trying to unlock more mystery or lore from the weapon I have been slaying with.... Not scouring through thousands of ****** swords on a dungheap in Angmar.

Again, given the structure of MMOs - including LOTRO - gear needs to be discarded and moved on from. That's just MMO 101. If it doesn't do that, the game is broken.

To The One Responsible For the Steaming Failure of LI + Radiance:

You are fooling nobody, man: the ladies don't dig your combover, the nerds think you are a dork, and your money can't hide your stupidity. Give up now. Your new career in the food-service industry awaits you.

I hope the person, or persons, got a raise and promotion. Well deserved for a job well done.

Originally Posted by Magian

If you aren't forced to continually get new weapons, the game stagnates.

If you aren't forced to continually get new weapons, the game can grow in ways that other games can't.

Again, given the structure of MMOs - including LOTRO - gear needs to be discarded and moved on from. That's just MMO 101.

Heh, and I'm narrow-minded.

I don't want to play MMO 101. That's an eight year old's game. If you are happy with your hampster wheel from Stockholm, feel free to spin away. But I want more. I am not happy with how this game has turned from its promise into a cookie-cutter, a rubberstamp, a treadmill to nowhere. And - here is the key point - I don't think the developers are happy either. I think that is why we are having so many "Ask The Community" threads: not because they want to know the answers, but they need to get it in print so they can show Mr. Combover how he has failed them, the company, and their fans.

I think that the decision to make LIs so poorly legendary, and an artificial wall renamed as Radiance, were not the decisions of gamers who develop these things, but of a single person who is clueless, yet hold power.

At this point, Magian, I am no longer talking to you. You are happy with your game, so I am happy for you. My mind is not so narrow as to see only my Stockholm Hampster Wheel placed before me, but to see just what we have missed. There is someone to blame, and he knows who he is: he is simply a coward, or oblivious, or both. Either way, he stands between me, and my shared vision of what LotRO could/should be. And, I won't be silent.

Originally Posted by Magian

Again, given the structure of MMOs - including LOTRO - gear needs to be discarded and moved on from. That's just MMO 101. If it doesn't do that, the game is broken.

Thanks for clearing up how narrow minded WE are w/ wanting something fresh and innovative. I can see I'm completely off-base wanting my Lord of the Rings experience to be Lord of the Ringsy, when I should want it to be WoWsy or Everquesty or even Console RPGy.

And thanks for clarifying what economy means, too. I totally thought it had something to do w/ economics, but now that I know it means 'gear progression' I have been enlightened to a brave, exciting new world.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

If you aren't forced to continually get new weapons, the game can grow in ways that other games can't.

No, it can't. When gear begins to stagnate you get the current BG itemization mess. Gear must be continually reset to keep players busy and enthused.

Heh, and I'm narrow-minded.

I don't want to play MMO 101. That's an eight year old's game. If you are happy with your hampster wheel from Stockholm, feel free to spin away. But I want more. I am not happy with how this game has turned from its promise into a cookie-cutter, a rubberstamp, a treadmill to nowhere. And - here is the key point - I don't think the developers are happy either. I think that is why we are having so many "Ask The Community" threads: not because they want to know the answers, but they need to get it in print so they can show Mr. Combover how he has failed them, the company, and their fans.

There is a difference you're missing. It is one thing to be innovative, it's another to discard an element that is critical to the any game's success. Square tires may be innovative, but is that really good for your car?

Your interpretation of "Tell the Community" threads are completely off. They are being used as data. It is valuable data when it is seen from what it is - that is a limited sample size that is no way conducive to the population. But go ahead and believe it is meant to "show up a dev." Fantasy land must be nice.

I think that the decision to make LIs so poorly legendary, and an artificial wall renamed as Radiance, were not the decisions of gamers who develop these things, but of a single person who is clueless, yet hold power.

Radiance is just a raid gate mechanic. Are the devs of Blizzard, SOE clueless too? Don't get upset because Turbine realized they had to end the days of ezmode access for the good of the game.

At this point, Magian, I am no longer talking to you. You are happy with your game, so I am happy for you. My mind is not so narrow as to see only my Stockholm Hampster Wheel placed before me, but to see just what we have missed. There is someone to blame, and he knows who he is: he is simply a coward, or oblivious, or both. Either way, he stands between me, and my shared vision of what LotRO could/should be. And, I won't be silent.

First your argumentative techniques are wonderful. Or rather epic fail. Have fun with that.

There is no one to blame. Notwithstanding the neglect it suffers from, LOTRO was in its prime in MoM. The game suffers from poor itemization and poor development. That's it. The mould of the game is perfect.

You had your 'vision' in SoA but it's gone now. It's gone because it's not sustainable for future growth. It's not coming back.

Especially when you make such poor arguments of "I'm right, you're wrong, deal with it." How do you intend to persuade anyone, less a developer? Re-think your strategy if you want some real progress.

Originally Posted by kerryak

Thanks for clearing up how narrow minded WE are w/ wanting something fresh and innovative. I can see I'm completely off-base wanting my Lord of the Rings experience to be Lord of the Ringsy, when I should want it to be WoWsy or Everquesty or even Console RPGy.

And thanks for clarifying what economy means, too. I totally thought it had something to do w/ economics, but now that I know it means 'gear progression' I have been enlightened to a brave, exciting new world.

Obvious troll is obvious.

There are some things you cannot innovate from - at least not right now. Until there is good, sustainable hover technology, you cannot make a car without wheels.

An MMO cannot be sustained without continual gear resets.

The proof? If the contrary was such a great idea, it would've been done by now by someone.

But it hasn't.

Alright, back to your troll den.

Originally Posted by Magian

Obvious troll is obvious.

There are some things you cannot innovate from - at least not right now. Until there is good, sustainable hover technology, you cannot make a car without wheels.

An MMO cannot be sustained without continual gear resets.

The proof? If the contrary was such a great idea, it would've been done by now by someone.

But it hasn't.

Alright, back to your troll den.

Classic! You're 2 for 2!!

I'll go w/ it though: What do the limits of current hovercraft innovation, which is contrained by real-world physics, R&D, fuel economy (look, I used it correctly in context!), legal & governmental policies, etc... have to do w/ the limits a SOFTWARE developer has within IT'S OWN SOFTWARE?

Also: what does 'continual gear resets' have to do w/ 1 or 2 items out of the variety of slots? There are many examples of gear not being replaced in several slots, after an expansion - even within LOTRO. Is LOTRO unsustainable b/c the Amber Ring is still useful, or that hunters are still using level 40 Tomes?

Originally Posted by Magian

The LI system is a resounding success because of the work required to get that good, and in some cases, perfect LI. it is a time sink that keeps us busy.

It may keep you busy, but I dont believe there are that many people that actually grind for stong LIs, especially since the LIs change so much from release to release and even moreso those players that run multiple alts at endgame. I think that the real effect is the overall endgame playerbase is generally under-geared relative to what the endgame raid was designed for.

Originally Posted by kerryak

Classic! You're 2 for 2!!

I'll go w/ it though: What do the limits of current hovercraft innovation, which is contrained by real-world physics, R&D, fuel economy (look, I used it correctly in context!), legal & governmental policies, etc... have to do w/ the limits a SOFTWARE developer has within IT'S OWN SOFTWARE?

Also: what does 'continual gear resets' have to do w/ 1 or 2 items out of the variety of slots? There are many examples of gear not being replaced in several slots, after an expansion - even within LOTRO. Is LOTRO unsustainable b/c the Amber Ring is still useful, or that hunters are still using level 40 Tomes?

It's about principle and a useful analogy. Some things are consistent. Gear resets are among them.

Weapons != accessories. The former is so much more valuable than the latter. it has a much more disasterous effect on the game - anything from sustainable to balancing.

Originally Posted by dhatcher1

It may keep you busy, but I dont believe there are that many people that actually grind for stong LIs, especially since the LIs change so much from release to release and even moreso those players that run multiple alts at endgame. I think that the real effect is the overall endgame playerbase is generally under-geared relative to what the endgame raid was designed for.

Under gearing is a problem, for sure. But if your LI's are not up to snuff, there is no one to blame but yourself. They are a necessary evil and demonstrate your committment to end game.

All Turbine can do is put the carrot out. Players in this game really need to drop their egos, man up, and do the grind. It's really not that bad - by far the easiest among major MMOs.

Originally Posted by Magian

Players in this game really need to drop their egos, man up, and do the grind.

Wow, sounds fun. Sign me up. Please, I want less fun in my games I play, and encourage Turbine to make games like that.

It's not amazing how wrong you are - people are wrong every day - but in how you wallow in it like it's a health spa whirlpool. You might be the ONLY ONE who thinks the current LI + radiance was a good idea. At some point, you will realize that simple, salient, fact. At some point you might stop spouting your opinion as a viable position, and simply admit you are wrong.

But if you don't - and a great many people cannot see their own failures and shortcomings, you would not be unique in that - you will simply not grow. I take comfort in the fact that only half of America is below average.

Which half do you think you are in?

Found this to be relevant.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

Wow, sounds fun. Sign me up. Please, I want less fun in my games I play, and encourage Turbine to make games like that.

It's not amazing how wrong you are - people are wrong every day - but in how you wallow in it like it's a health spa whirlpool. You might be the ONLY ONE who thinks the current LI + radiance was a good idea. At some point, you will realize that simple, salient, fact. At some point you might stop spouting your opinion as a viable position, and simply admit you are wrong.

But if you don't - and a great many people cannot see their own failures and shortcomings, you would not be unique in that - you will simply not grow. I take comfort in the fact that only half of America is below average.

Which half do you think you are in?

Congratulations! You have succeeded in the "I'm right, you're wrong, so be quiet" position. Bill O'Reilly, is that you?

Put something constructive on the table and I'll have something to respond to.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

At some point you might stop spouting your opinion as a viable position, and simply admit you are wrong.

Now I think you are going a bit far. His opinion is his opinion, and I would bet its a fairly common opinion amongst those he associates with. I do not think it is representative of the bulk of the playerbase, but probably is of the more hardcore raiders.

I think if Turbine was smart they would throw on an item mall and make all the raid gear available for sale. The success of all those mediocre free games has pretty much proven that people will spend stupid amounts of money for shortcuts to level faster and better gear. They will also spend silly amounts on cosmetic items.

In the end, none of our opinions matter. Turbine will design the game systems as they choose and the game will either thrive or wallow based on what they do.

Originally Posted by dhatcher1

Now I think you are going a bit far. His opinion is his opinion, and I would bet its a fairly common opinion amongst those he associates with. I do not think it is representative of the bulk of the playerbase, but probably is of the more hardcore raiders.

I think you will change your opinion of his opinion if you look at his post history. Quite a bit of it is contrary to the "grind is good" mentality, "tedium" is a mechanic that he is against (but just not in this thread??). What isn't contrary to everything he is espousing here, is just negative. So, I will still apologize for taking the bait of someone with a dissonant "opinion", though it really isn't even one of those. It's just trolling.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

I think you will change your opinion of his opinion if you look at his post history. Quite a bit of it is contrary to the "grind is good" mentality, "tedium" is a mechanic that he is against (but just not in this thread??). What isn't contrary to everything he is espousing here, is just negative. So, I will still apologize for taking the bait of someone with a dissonant "opinion", though it really isn't even one of those. It's just trolling.

Bold is textbook irony.

There is a difference between tedium and grind. One is a necessary evil and the other is unnecessary. Of course what is tedium and grind is often a matter of interpretation and opinion.

For example: excessive trash in a raid is considered tedium, not a grind to a boss. Grinding out various LI's is not tedium, but a grind to keep us busy.

In other words, if it is purposeless, then it is tedium. But if it has a purpose that I can support, then it is grind.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Originally Posted by Magian

Under gearing is a problem, for sure. But if your LI's are not up to snuff, there is no one to blame but yourself. They are a necessary evil and demonstrate your committment to end game.

The quality of your LIs does not demonstrate commitment to the end game, at least not in a fair manner. Because it is so random, some players get good endgame LIs in a fairly short period of time while others will spend hundreds of hours on a character and still not have equally potent legacies. Its also very uneven between the classes. Hunters have it pretty dang easy, they need one bow with a couple must-have legacies and one weapon with only one critical legacy. For RKs to be fully competent they need at least 2 stones and 2 bags, all with the correct legacies. Some grind is necessary, but the current inequity of getting to completion of the grind is horrible.

The other problem is that the random LI lottery is a complete diversion from how every advancement mechanic in the game worked before Moria's release. When most of us lifers bought the game, someone who plays casually could get fairly good gear and participate in a raid as a useful member. Now you have to get lucky or spend more time than a casual player has to get raid ready. Whats worse is you never know how much effort it will take to get raid ready so you cant decide if it is even worth trying to do.

In SoA if you wanted to adjust your build you found a piece of gear that had the stats you wanted and farmed the boss that dropped it. Eventually it was going to drop and you would get it. I had an incentive to run instances to get gear and would team up with others who wanted gear from other bosses in the same instance. Now if I need an LI upgrade where do I go? What do I do? I am directionless, no way to form a plan to achieve what I want. There is no quest I can do, no boss I can farm. Farming symbols in SG and crafting 2nd ages over and over is the only reliable plan right now. We have gone from instance, quest, boss farming gear to crafting gear.

In SoA changing one piece of gear would rarely have 1% impact on character performance so not getting the item would not exclude you from being endgame competitive. Now we have items that a single piece of gear can be in excess of a 20% change of effectiveness in performance. Random drops of uber gear is a fairly common thing in MMOs, this game was one of few that was a refuge from RNG tyrrany. Now its just the same as all the other grind games with those ridiculous drops the most people will never get (I know its not nearly as bad in practice due to the fairly limited options, but it is just as bad of a design).

Adding LIs as so powerful and so random has taken player skill out of the endgame and introduced willingness/ability to participate in random time-sink in its place.

There are other ways LIs could have been implemented that would have provided increasing benefits to those who spent more time on them without creating such strong capability differences and such inequity based on class and luck.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

I think you will change your opinion of his opinion

I think know Mavery reasonably well from both the forums and being in groups with him. I have disagreed with him many times but I do not think he is just throwing out BS to make people angry. I believe he would consider posting a waste of time if he didnt feel his opinion had merit.


My biggest problem with LIs is that they are a major shift from how the game was when I was convinced to subscribe lifetime, and that the random factor is excessively heavy and not fairly distributed between the various classes and playstyles. Grind like LI legacies like class traits or deeds and I would be happy. Open up LIs by completing quests or deeds would be cool. Handing out a perfect healing book to Faldir so he can get his healing boosted 20% in 20 hours of grind but making Failmor grind 20 books for 400 hours to get the same benefit is a fail system IMO.

We obviously disagree, dhatcher, but I will assent to one point in particular: there is an unfair disparity between classes. I really feel bad for truly casual Champions. Trying to get AOE, crit, and relentless before level 30 is trying.

The system can be refined a bit, yes, but I don't think an overhaul is truly necessary. If you put in the work you can get something decent and usable. Nothing I've seen runs contrary to this.

It's just, I think, "putting in the work" is something some are philosophically against and this is where the angst against gating and LI's are derived from.

Originally Posted by Magian

It's just, I think, "putting in the work" is something some are philosophically against and this is where the angst against gating and LI's are derived from.

I dont think people are against putting in the work. Its more that there is no garuntee that putting in the work will get you the result you started out to achieve.

As you mention alot of champs are in search of AOE, Crit and Relentless on thier weapons. I had a Kin mate who got those three on his first lvl 65 ID. 1 weapon and he got what he was after. I have been through hundreds and still not found one with those three.

Now that is not game breaking, I can most certainly still be effective with what I have got. It is about player satisfaction and having a level playing feild.

When 2 players have the same objective and player A achieves that objective on the first go and player B is 6 months down the track and still to achieve that objective based on the roll of a dice and not on skill/time spent then you are always going to make people unhappy and have them give up on the system.

Originally Posted by yurick75

I dont think people are against putting in the work. Its more that there is no garuntee that putting in the work will get you the result you started out to achieve.

As you mention alot of champs are in search of AOE, Crit and Relentless on thier weapons. I had a Kin mate who got those three on his first lvl 65 ID. 1 weapon and he got what he was after. I have been through hundreds and still not found one with those three.

Now that is not game breaking, I can most certainly still be effective with what I have got. It is about player satisfaction and having a level playing feild.

When 2 players have the same objective and player A achieves that objective on the first go and player B is 6 months down the track and still to achieve that objective based on the roll of a dice and not on skill/time spent then you are always going to make people unhappy and have them give up on the system.

What we enter now is "reasonable time spent." If it was truly a common occurrence that a Champion took 6 months to get AOE, crit, and relentless on a weapon, then it is a broken system. But somehow I do not think that is the norm.

You can also "get what you want" if you put the work in. You are at the mercy of the RNG, but if you put enough tries in, you will succeed. It may take 10 tries, 100 tries, or a 1000 tries, but eventually you will get it.

While I don't think its perfect, it does serve its purpose. Turbine knows the amount of content available to us is miniscule. The LI system must prolong its own content as much as possible.

That means a random system on multiple levels.

Love it or hate it, it does what it sets out to do admirably.

Since you mentioned a Champ I will talk about mine, and his luck with the LI system since SoM.

I've been looking for a 2H Champ weapon since SoM with a very specific set of legacies and I haven't found it yet. I've ID'd every 2H Champ weapon I've come across, I've bought dozens off the AH, and I've crafted some as as I get fragments, but no luck yet. I'm even farther away from the Champ Runes I want. I've currently settled on a fairly unimpressive L65 Rune and my old L60 2nd Age to swap in for 3 skills (Rising, Ebbing, Bracing Attack). I have one 1H Axe that I consider what I want, and I put in the work to grind up the scrolls to make it pretty, but that's the only item on my Champ that has rewarded my reasonable time spent with something I like. It's been 6 months since SoM was released...

It isn't 'reasonable time spent' that's the problem. I have no problem doing the work if there's something waiting at the end. The problem with the current system is that there is zero guarantee that you will ever actually get what you want, no matter how much time you spend using the system and how much effort you expend. One player can to spend a few days to get their ideal item but another could go indefinitely and not get that same item simply due to random chance. There is zero guarantee that you will get what you want out of the system, no matter the number of tries, because there is no control over the system. That might be a good system if you are just trying to stretch out played time, but it's not a good idea over the long haul.

You're right about one thing though. The Legendary system does do what it was designed to do admirably. It's not at all enjoyable, but it's quite good at fulfilling its intended role.

Originally Posted by Magian

You can also "get what you want" if you put the work in. You are at the mercy of the RNG, but if you put enough tries in, you will succeed. It may take 10 tries, 100 tries, or a 1000 tries, but eventually you will get it.

Im sorry but you cant say that I will succeed full stop. With the current system it is possible for me to continue trying and never get the result I am after.

You cannot say with 100 % certainty that I WILL get those three legacies. If that were the case then every person on earth would be certain of a first division loto win in thier lifetime. And we all know how likely that is

Also if as you say this system is designed to keep people on the hamster wheel then why is it that player A gets off the hamster wheel at try 1. If this was so then wouldnt they want player A to stay on the wheel as long as player B.

Originally Posted by yurick75

Im sorry but you cant say that I will succeed full stop. With the current system it is possible for me to continue trying and never get the result I am after.

You cannot say with 100 % certainty that I WILL get those three legacies. If that were the case then every person on earth would be certain of a first division loto win in thier lifetime. And we all know how likely that is

Also if as you say this system is designed to keep people on the hamster wheel then why is it that player A gets off the hamster wheel at try 1. If this was so then wouldnt they want player A to stay on the wheel as long as player B.

Providing you do not give up, yes you will get eventually. The odds may be stacked against you, but the RNG does allow it if you're lucky enough. Eventually you will get lucky.

Think of it like this: pick a number between 1 and 100. Then go into game and /roll. You may not get your number in the first roll or the first 50. But I guarantee you, if you go long enough, your number will pop up. It just might take awhile.

The system will eventually reward you. It isn't necessarily porportionate to time input. But you will get it.

Just like how the number 77 will show up in rolls. It may take 200 tries, but it'll show up.

Originally Posted by Magian

Providing you do not give up, yes you will get eventually. The odds may be stacked against you, but the RNG does allow it if you're lucky enough. Eventually you will get lucky.

Think of it like this: pick a number between 1 and 100. Then go into game and /roll. You may not get your number in the first roll or the first 50. But I guarantee you, if you go long enough, your number will pop up. It just might take awhile.

The system will eventually reward you. It isn't necessarily porportionate to time input. But you will get it.

Just like how the number 77 will show up in rolls. It may take 200 tries, but it'll show up.

Yes but it is possible that for some people 77 will never show up in a roll. With the random system it is indeed possible and likely that people will never get the lucky roll no matter how long they try for. Then we are trying for multiple variables not just 1 so the likelyhood of a succesfull outcome decreases again.

I like LI's however I do not like the randomness of it all. They stated when the stat scrolls were bought in that these could be expanded on in the future. I would like to see this done so that legacies could be swapped out. I dont mind doing a bit of work to get something but I like to have a clear objective to work towards with a tangible reward. Not keep looking and you may get the lucky roll at some random time if you are lucky!

Originally Posted by Magian

Eventually you will get lucky.

Well, his cereal *IS* magically delicious.

Originally Posted by Magian

Congratulations! You have succeeded in the "I'm right, you're wrong, so be quiet" position. Bill O'Reilly, is that you?

Put something constructive on the table and I'll have something to respond to.

I loled. He may be Hannity as well

Originally Posted by Magian

Providing you do not give up, yes you will get eventually. The odds may be stacked against you, but the RNG does allow it if you're lucky enough. Eventually you will get lucky.

Think of it like this: pick a number between 1 and 100. Then go into game and /roll. You may not get your number in the first roll or the first 50. But I guarantee you, if you go long enough, your number will pop up. It just might take awhile.

The system will eventually reward you. It isn't necessarily porportionate to time input. But you will get it.

Just like how the number 77 will show up in rolls. It may take 200 tries, but it'll show up.

So the system is fine because eventually, given some indeterminate amount of time and effort, you will get what you want. It doesn't matter that you could spend a year looking for just the right legendary item while other people could spend a week, since it's technically possible given enough time that everyone should get lucky sooner or later it's OK? That's a ridiculous position to take.

Let's apply that sort of random fun to leveling. If the last two digits of your experience total don't equal 42 when you level you're reset back to the start and have to gain that experience over again. Nothing wrong with that, given enough attempts everyone will level. You just have to get lucky and be willing to put in the time, but the system will eventually reward you for your effort. Don't worry, it won't take near as long the second time you try to get to 63 either. You'll get a little blue pill that refunds 15-25% of your effort from the last time you tried to hit 63 to speed up the process.

How do you think people would respond to that sort of a design decision?

While I agree with you Magain on the need of "grinding", I see no reason it needs to be "throw this away to equip that".

Gear replacement is only a requirement in the LI System if you choose to have a static Legacy Pool.

If the legacy pools were expanded as content became available, and tailored to different playstyles, the need to "replace" LI's instead becomes a matter of "customization".

Raid Legacies could be earned that are tailored for raiders;

Kill Boss #1 recieve the option of a legacy that grants +5% damage (stackable) to Boss #1, as raiders progress getting early bosses on farm becomes easier and faster allowing more time for progressive content. Could be done for each boss. This is great for people who are working on that content and of no desire to those who aren't.

Similar things could be done for trash mobs, undoing boss immunities, gating the next raid, etc. Other skill specific legacies can be farmed in the landscape and instance clusters, which would be good enough to actually work at high end content. Legacies can be tied to specific mob types or names only found in the raids which gives them the ability to be BiS for those who play that way and unwanted by those who don't.

What about PvMP legacies that can only be earned and used in the Moors.

RP legacies could be earned that allowed things like "invisibility" but only OOC and in town. Animations, glow effects, non damaging lightning bolts/fire balls, are all things that people would do if they wanted them but are by no means needed.

Legacies can be earned and tailored to any type of content and playstyle with relitive ease. The possibilities are limited only by the imagination.

Legacies that affect actual combat content can easily be tied to regions, making farming needed each update and further tied to content that is already being designed, for those that play that way. New legacies could be added to old content to drive foot traffic through content that is seeing little use. What about a quest that sent you to The Rift and after competing a full clear a new boss opened up that earned you a desired legacy for defeating?

This is a very brief and incomplete summery of what I wish the LI System was but perhaps the jist of it comes through. Generic legacies that can fairly easily be earned that are good enough to at least attempt highend content if one chooses. Refined legacies that are tied to current content and will be desireable to upgrade. Legacies that broaden the game based on playstyle where "the best" is really dependant on how you play.

Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken

So the system is fine because eventually, given some indeterminate amount of time and effort, you will get what you want. It doesn't matter that you could spend a year looking for just the right legendary item while other people could spend a week, since it's technically possible given enough time that everyone should get lucky sooner or later it's OK? That's a ridiculous position to take.

Its really not ridiculous. Random distribution systems are absolutely fair to everyone. YMMV

There are many people that love to buy lotto tickets, play slot machines and day-trade stocks. The random element is actually a fun feature for those people. Most games are filled with such features, and often sell item mall items to shortcut various parts.

My issue is there was none of that in this game when I started playing it. I left the free grindy random uber loot drop games I was playing and paid to play this casual, easy to level, non-gear dependent game. Knowledge of and ability to use your characters skillset predominantly determined how far you could get. A year into my lifetime subscription they released Moria and completely changed the nature of the game. Everything from LIs to raid armor became required random and/or luck based loot drops.

It doesnt matter how good of a healing minstrel you are, if you dont have the extra 20% healing boost from the H&M and Bolster legacies you effectively suck compared to minstrels that have them. Want to solo level efficiently? Doesnt matter how good your skill usage is, some inept nitwit with the correct +25% skill damage legacies will have an easier time than you. Player skill has been severely compromised in favor of luck or spending hours doing mind-numbing grinding.

Originally Posted by Magian

The proof? If the contrary was such a great idea, it would've been done by now by someone.

That, my friend, is the path to mediocrity.

Originally Posted by dhatcher1

Handing out a perfect healing book to Faldir so he can get his healing boosted 20% in 20 hours of grind but making Failmor grind 20 books for 400 hours to get the same benefit is a fail system IMO.

I dont see the problem here....

I'm sorry if this has already been suggested, but I skipped the last couple pages to put these thoughts to word before they skipped my mind..

Using the subscription base as an endorsement or condemnation of the LI and Radiance systems is a fundamentally flawed analysis.

The boards represent a fraction of the player-base, so it's easy to discount suggestions you don't like with the adage "players would stop paying if they didn't like it". But, I'd suggest you consider the reasons we all play.

I despise the radiance and LI systems... and I took a good six month break from the game through sheer frustration with the system, but I came back. I came back because fundamentally I think there are good systems in the game, because I love the LOTRO world (Well, SoA more than the expansions) and most importantly, I love the folks of Silverlode and Lotro.

Without conducting an in-game poll to reach out to the full subscriber base, you cannot say whether everyone loves the LI system or hates it, or is indifferent. It's easy to find one portion of a game idiotic, but to keep paying to play because of all the other things you do like. Because people don't reach out to the boards to express an opinion does not mean they like the system, or they don't care, it means they choose not to use the boards.

I wish Turbine and the LI/Radiance fans would back off from claiming people like the system because they keep subscribing, and I would acknowledge that outside of the boards, we on the opposite side must do the same.

Until Turbine does conduct a polling of the real player-base, rather than using subscription numbers, I think it's best to acknowledge that we don't really have a firm grasp on what the majority of players think. It's entirely possible that 90% of the player-base loves the system, and it's entirely possible that 90% of the player-base hates it, but pays to play because they know MMOs constantly change, or for any number of other reasons.

Having said that, I stand with Blackhawk.