...Tulkas laughs ever, in sport or in war, and even in the face of Melkor he laughed in battles before the Elves were born.
Just so. There is also another line in the early portions of the Silmarillion that refers to Tulkas' laughter when he enters Arda for the first time and whups on Melkor.
Unfortunately that isn't the answer I was looking for. It is a very brief reference in one of the two primary works in the canon (The Hobbit and LotR).
"Murderers' and elf-friends!" the Great Goblin shouted. "Slash them! Beat them! Bite them! Gnash them! Take them away to dark holes full of snakes, and never let them see the light again!" He was in such a rage that he jumped off his seat and himself rushed at Thorin with his mouth open.
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head. Wink, Vilya, 85-Burg, Olde Hippie
Excellent work Boraxxe. I note that as of this moment you are sitting on a jackpot of a post count - 777. I'm sorry that I don't have a suitable payout other than that it is your turn to pose the next question (as if we were still honoring that convention).
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
There are actually 2 possible answers to this one.
And that guess, "Golfimbul", is right on the slope of one of them.
The slope of the "Mount" of the same name?
My other guess--a real stretcher--would be something along the lines of "Helmsfader".
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
My other guess--a real stretcher--would be something along the lines of "Helmsfader".
Mount Gram is correct! (guess that counts as a hole-in-2)
as in:
. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Gol-firnbul's head clean off with a wooden club. It sailed a hundred yards through the air and went down a rabbit hole, and in this way the battle was won and the game of Golf invented at the same moment.
The second possible answer is Gram who was the eighth in the line of the Lords of the Mark. He was King just before Helm.
And now I am curious about Helmsfader.....is that something like Helm's Father? Sounds like it. If thats the case you are a double winner!
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head. Wink, Vilya, 85-Burg, Olde Hippie
Mount Gram is correct! (guess that counts as a hole-in-2)
as in:
The second possible answer is Gram who was the eighth in the line of the Lords of the Mark. He was King just before Helm.
And now I am curious about Helmsfader.....is that something like Helm's Father? Sounds like it. If thats the case you are a double winner!
Yah. I was going for Old English though, as the mirror for Rohirric, which it turns out would be Helmsfæder.
All these silly contortions though, only because I'd again forgotten that One-word Tolkien Trivia questions don't require One-word Tolkien Trivia answers. :blush:
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
Ah, I hadn't thought of that one, good guess. However it's not as appropriate as either of the two answers I had in mind.
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
I thought of Huan and Wolf-Sauron. But even though they were both in canine form they were not doubles and could not have been mistaken for each other.
Then I thought of Smeagol and Gollum. But that was more a case of multiple personality (sometimes mistakenly called schizophrenia) rather than a good and evil twin. Not Doppelgänger.
I have already been shot down on the Saruman/Gandalf try. So its not that.
I am left with Frodo and Sam on the plains of Gorgoroth, dressed in Orc livery and trying their best to imitate Orcs of Mordor.
These are your Doppelgängers.
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head. Wink, Vilya, 85-Burg, Olde Hippie
Sir, I assure you they are neither my Doppelgängers, their own Doppelgängers, nor any of this riddle's possible Doppelgängers . :P
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
Let us consider a moment what a doppleganger is. I think the accepted concept in the U.S. is a creature that has assumed the likeness of a person and attempts to take his place in his life (usually after having done away with him). From that perspective I would say that the doppleganger in Tolkien's writings would be Bilbo, upon his return from his journey (at least from the perspective of the Shire folk).
You said there were two. I will endeavor to think of the other.
*Edit. My best guess for the second doppleganger is Luthien, as Thuringwethil, although I would be hard pressed to differentiate that from the Frodo/Sam as orcs answer that was rejected. I suppose the argument would be that it is not a mere disguise, but rather the physical form and appearance.
Both of you have given excellent, insightful answers. Yall are going to be so disappointed when you figure out the correct ones.
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
Heh, according to Wikipedia: In fiction, folklore, and popular culture, a doppelgänger (About this sound pronunciation (help·info)) is a tangible double of a living person that typically represents evil. In the vernacular, the word doppelgänger has come to refer (as in German) to any double or look-alike of a person. The word is also used to describe the sensation of having glimpsed oneself in peripheral vision, in a position where there is no chance that it could have been a reflection.
Sooo... Gandalf/Saruman, Gollum/Smeagol, and Luthien/Bat-Lady have been covered. They seem to cover more of the folklore side. If you were going for the vernacular, meaning double, it would be basically any of the twin pairs that descended from Beren/Luthien XD But I doubt it.
Tangible double... well, there is no case in Middle-earth that I can think of that involves someone talking to himself or two of that person existing at the same time. Unless it's Glorfindel, since he died and then came back- almost like a clone XD
Yea, I'm out of ideas. Certainly no ideas about a pair of the same person, one being evil. I mean, Galadriel goes a little nuts at one point in time, but not enough to really count as another person...
Elendilmir (the raid toons): LAERWEN, 80 htr ♦ OLORIEL, 75 min ♦ AETHELIND, 75 capt ♦ ROSALLA, 75 burg Landroval (the RP toons): LAERLIN (Bio + Drawing) ♦ AETHELIND (Bio + Drawing) ♦ NETHAEL
Nope. Tomorrow, if the solution hasn't yet been found, and if there are no objections, I'll give another clue.
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
Someone I know (that has been following this thread) insists that I submit this guess.
Sam, when walking up the orc tower in the entrance to Mordor, scared some orcs away because his shadow appeared to the orcs to be a great elven warrior.
Now, if this turns out to be the correct answer I will be eating some serious crebain.
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head. Wink, Vilya, 85-Burg, Olde Hippie
Someone I know (that has been following this thread) insists that I submit this guess.
Sam, when walking up the orc tower in the entrance to Mordor, scared some orcs away because his shadow appeared to the orcs to be a great elven warrior.
Now, if this turns out to be the correct answer I will be eating some serious crebain.
Hopefully you weren't craving it!
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
My guess:
The dopplegangers are either Frodo and Bilbo, when they are both at their worst because of the ring, or seen BY Frodo and Bilbo, when they think their friends are these disgusting creatures. The ring can make you see the other as an evil creature different that the other really is.
I wont go back and find the passages, but Biblo and Frodo's evil alts come out in the book. Like when Frodo is at Mount Doom at the end. We see his Doppleganger.
Clues: I sort of hate that idea, but maybe if it was something like a single letter from the name of the primary answer....
For instance if we had had that clue in the beginning and it was the letter "i", I would have known that every answer I have given would have been incorrect.
If, on the other hand, that letter was "a", ....*grin*
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head. Wink, Vilya, 85-Burg, Olde Hippie
My guess:
The dopplegangers are either Frodo and Bilbo, when they are both at their worst because of the ring, or seen BY Frodo and Bilbo, when they think their friends are these disgusting creatures. The ring can make you see the other as an evil creature different that the other really is.
I wont go back and find the passages, but Biblo and Frodo's evil alts come out in the book. Like when Frodo is at Mount Doom at the end. We see his Doppleganger.
?
Nope, though this is yet another in a succession of answers I find more interesting than mine. (I have to mention also I'm inordinately pleased by your use of the word "alts" in this context. Talk about English being a living language. )
* * *
Here is another one-word clue to the same trivia question:
Originally Posted by Laire
evil.
edit: Sorry Boraxxe, I didn't catch your suggestion before I posted this.
Last edited by BIGeyedBUG; Oct 02 2010 at 12:51 PM.
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
Elf/Orc: Orcs were created by Melkor as noted in the Silmarillion, "in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes".
Edit: AH Ha. While I was afk, you snuck in the clue. I think my answer still works with that clue.
Last edited by Boraxxe; Oct 02 2010 at 01:00 PM.
Reason: sneakin' note.
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head. Wink, Vilya, 85-Burg, Olde Hippie
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
Lots of possibilities. First thing that came to mind was Glorfindel, as he was in Gondolin the Lord of the House of the Golden Flower.
* * * "From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold."
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