Thread: Turbine Hates Crafting

All of this has probably been said a myriad of time before, but here goes anyway...

So there I am. I need to re-armor a couple of characters.

I have most, but not all of the L56 light armor recipes (the highest I've found that are single use). I can't buy the other recipes because no NPC sells them and the ones I need aren't up for auction.

So I figure...okay, I can do guild L58 recipes for a piece or two. Of course, I can only do one of those per week AND I need a mithril flake for each.

According to the update notes, lizards in the Water Works now drop flakes. So I go to kill some lizards...no luck.

Why is it that one can only do one recipe per week AND you need a very rare item to do it? Isn't one of the other constraint sufficient to restrict the crafting? Why does it have to be both?

Hence my title for this thread.

General Lizards around the WW don't drop flakes. Unless it's a named dropper.

And yes it takes a while to build up a guild-crafting reservoir from which you can make things, but that's just how it is.

1) Flakes are available through skirmshes now and aren't that many SM's.

2) Atleast on Vilya you can get a flake for 500 silver on the AH, so if you're that desperate for a flake, go look there.

Flakes aren't any more rare than a shard is for previous tiers, so I fail to see how Turbine hates crafting because you are having a hard time finding a flake.

P.S. Lizards in the Waterwheels instance (Lumul-nar, I think) now drop flakes, which I do understand getting confused because both the instance and the area are commonly referred to as WW.

Crafted gear is better than anything you are going to get questing until you get to the barter grind gear (and even then its sometimes better). Until about lvl 40 it is massively superior to anything else you can get. From 40 to about 57, its just as good or a little better. Its only from 58-65 that medallion gained gear is better and even then, the Lothlorien crafted is pretty close.

Its not supposed to be a 'get free stuff easily' method. Its supposed to be an equivalent effort alternative.

One other good place for mithril flakes is in the prospector crafting instances in Moria. If you can prospect, its an option. I find that you get 1-2 per run through, from the Khazad Gold ore deposits.

Originally Posted by gludayers

1) Flakes are available through skirmshes now and aren't that many SM's.

2) Atleast on Vilya you can get a flake for 500 silver on the AH, so if you're that desperate for a flake, go look there.

Flakes aren't any more rare than a shard is for previous tiers, so I fail to see how Turbine hates crafting because you are having a hard time finding a flake.

P.S. Lizards in the Waterwheels instance (Lumul-nar, I think) now drop flakes, which I do understand getting confused because both the instance and the area are commonly referred to as WW.

1. Assumes that (a) people do skirmishes (I've found I detest them) and (b) don't have something better to spend the marks on.

2. On Elendilmir, lowest price is just under 700 S.

I have gotten one flake off a named in the Water Works. What I need is a regular supply--and that isn't trivial. Also, it still begs the question of why one has a one week cooldown to make an essential ingredient AND you need a flake. Isn't one or the other sufficient?

As for the Waterwheels, the following is a direct copy and paste from the patch notes;

Lizards in the Water Works now have a chance of dropping a Mithril Flake.

Where in there do you interpret Waterwheels? There are references to the Waterwheels in the patch notes, but not in the loot section I copied that from. Turbine is certainly capable of making the distinction.

Originally Posted by Vormaerin

Crafted gear is better than anything you are going to get questing until you get to the barter grind gear (and even then its sometimes better). Until about lvl 40 it is massively superior to anything else you can get. From 40 to about 57, its just as good or a little better. Its only from 58-65 that medallion gained gear is better and even then, the Lothlorien crafted is pretty close.

Its not supposed to be a 'get free stuff easily' method. Its supposed to be an equivalent effort alternative.

I'm not looking for a 'free stuff easily'. I still have to gather hides and buy other materials as well as recipes. For that matter, I did grind to SM tailor. Try that before you make remarks about "free" or "easy".

I just question the need for both a one week timer PLUS a rare drop. One or the other ought to be enough.

turbine also hates puppies

In addition to purchasing with skirmish marks and doing crafting instances, if you have a prospector, making a round or two farming ore in Lothlorien is a very good way to get flakes, and you may also run into a named flake dropper with a sure chance of getting one. I used to do that ore farming run regularly and would usually get at least 1-2 flakes, and on occasion got 5-6.

If you would prefer to kill for your flakes, rather than hunting mobs that might drop a flake, the sure thing flake droppers are the best bet. This site might be useful: http://www.darksymphony.info/sharddr...rddroppers.php

And flake droppers do have a regular spawn pattern. I have a kinmate who farms them regularly, knows all the spawn times, and basically goes to kill one every hour or so. He has stacks of mithril flakes on the AH for prices that make those who want to sell a few a week for gold want to cry. We all hate him

Originally Posted by revoked

if you have a prospector, making a round or two farming ore in Lothlorien is a very good way to get flakes

Which puts prospectors at a distinct advantage over foresters. If flakes can drop from ore, the equivalent should drop from wood, no? And scholar nodes as well. Why favor one craft over the other?

Crafting, especially woodcraft, as always been out of balance. Except for legendaries (which requires the flakes) what use is woodcraft? Metalsmiths can make armor which is still useful, same for tailors. Jewelers have just been given a major upgrade to keep them relevant. Cooks provide useful items, and to some degree scholars, but the basic recipes for a L6 woodworker are all but worthless. There aren't many takers for non-legendary weapons above L50.

I wouldn't say Turbine hates crafting, but they don't love all crafts equally.

Woodworkers can also make musical instruments, which are Minstrel weapons.

Originally Posted by whheydt

All of this has probably been said a myriad of time before, but here goes anyway...

So there I am. I need to re-armor a couple of characters.

I have most, but not all of the L56 light armor recipes (the highest I've found that are single use). I can't buy the other recipes because no NPC sells them and the ones I need aren't up for auction.

So I figure...okay, I can do guild L58 recipes for a piece or two. Of course, I can only do one of those per week AND I need a mithril flake for each.

According to the update notes, lizards in the Water Works now drop flakes. So I go to kill some lizards...no luck.

Why is it that one can only do one recipe per week AND you need a very rare item to do it? Isn't one of the other constraint sufficient to restrict the crafting? Why does it have to be both?

Hence my title for this thread.

If you think finding the flake plus a timeout is a big issue for crafters, wait till you see them add in reputation requirement. Ooops. They already did. >_<

Anyway I feel for you, I also have problem farming flake as from what I recalled, it was only available from random mining and rare mobs. So making a full set of crafter guild armor for only one of my toon actually take 2~3 months to achieve back then. And when the next tier actually need reputation grind to get the recipe, it burn me out and I start to take a very long break from the game.

But I have been away from the game for a very long time so I might be wrong, but I believe now flake can be obtained much easier, no?

Originally Posted by whheydt

I'm not looking for a 'free stuff easily'. I still have to gather hides and buy other materials as well as recipes. For that matter, I did grind to SM tailor. Try that before you make remarks about "free" or "easy".

I just question the need for both a one week timer PLUS a rare drop. One or the other ought to be enough.

Actually, I am a SM tailor and I have plenty of mithril flakes because they drop like candy if you actually quest. I get some from ore, some from killing rares, some from chests in 3 and 6 man instances. I suppose if I needed more I could buy them on the AH or skirmish for them.

Anyway, you don't have a one week timer if you bother to use the real recipe instead of the guild recipe.

Originally Posted by whheydt

Also, it still begs the question of why one has a one week cooldown to make an essential ingredient AND you need a flake. Isn't one or the other sufficient?

You don't need to use the guild recipes. The standard recipes are without cooldown but you have to take the risk of not critting. The guild recipes have a cooldown but always give the same result. Isn't it better to have two options?

Also, are you checking the AH for recipes to fill out your list? There are a lot that show up there.

It is always in your best interest to plan ahead... and the game doesn't exactly reward the mentality of 'I want it all and I want it right now...'

My jeweler usually makes one piece of guild jewelry a week for a member of the kin that needs it. I keep a note of the time and day the recipe is ready again and I make sure the necessary supplies are on hand. Between my kinmates and I there is a pretty good chance that at least ONE of us has found a mithril flake during the week.

And as others have stated flakes drop from so many sources - nodes, chests, named mobs, random mobs in instances. And the other supplies are also easy to get, even from 'work orders' (which many people forget about...)

Again, if you suddenly decide you have to craft a whole set of crit armor you are going to find it difficult. You will have to grind (which can be annoying) or spend auction house prices (if the materials are listed.) You will not have this problem if you slow down and plan a little ahead of time.

Take care.

Aside from the debate of what is too easy etc, if you can just auto crit everything at will what would be the point of having drop recipes. I suppose the fact that you got to kindred with the guild is one thing, but if there was no timer people could make a supply of crit gear limited purely by the number of flakes they can obtain (I have very little use for them and have collected 30+ without even thinking about it-I know guys who actually have multiple stacks of 100 because they find it fun to kill the mobs)

With that in mind I am glad you can't just go out willy nilly crafting multiple full sets of crit crafted gear and most crafters who use it as their money making probably feel much the same way, in fact I would bet many feel that as it is crit crafted gear is too easily obtainable and has been overly devalued as a result.

the only problem i have with crafting is the symbol drop and whoever though of gating crafting behind combat should be fired, end of line.

Originally Posted by auximenes

Also, are you checking the AH for recipes to fill out your list? There are a lot that show up there.

Per original post...Yes I checked the AH. No joy there.

Originally Posted by Lunal

One other good place for mithril flakes is in the prospector crafting instances in Moria. If you can prospect, its an option. I find that you get 1-2 per run through, from the Khazad Gold ore deposits.

Just ran both the L58 and the L60...no flakes.

Flakes are sooo easy to get. In a 20 min loop around Lothlorien I can score 5-6 flakes. Search the net, there are color maps that show all the spawn spots.

Then laugh at the suckers who pay 500s a pop on AH. :P

Originally Posted by douglasburns

Flakes are sooo easy to get. In a 20 min loop around Lothlorien I can score 5-6 flakes. Search the net, there are color maps that show all the spawn spots.

Then laugh at the suckers who pay 500s a pop on AH. :P

Looked 'em up and did the loop...no flake droppers. How many times have you done it and when? Looks like a serious exaggeration from here...

Originally Posted by revoked

In addition to purchasing with skirmish marks and doing crafting instances, if you have a prospector, making a round or two farming ore in Lothlorien is a very good way to get flakes, and you may also run into a named flake dropper with a sure chance of getting one. I used to do that ore farming run regularly and would usually get at least 1-2 flakes, and on occasion got 5-6.

I have one basic point on this claim (having just done such a run)...when was the alst time you got a flake from a node in Lorien? I got a couple several months ago, but I think a patch changed that. So...provide a date, please.

Originally Posted by auximenes

You don't need to use the guild recipes. The standard recipes are without cooldown but you have to take the risk of not critting. The guild recipes have a cooldown but always give the same result. Isn't it better to have two options?

Where is a non-guild L58 recipe?

Originally Posted by Soulhacker

If you think finding the flake plus a timeout is a big issue for crafters, wait till you see them add in reputation requirement. Ooops. They already did. >_<

While I don't think rep gating for crafting is a very good idea, I don't consider it a show-stopper. There are reliable ways to gain rep, even if some of them are time consuming. (I don't object to grinds per se, I object to ones that don't show any progress. Comes to that, my main is Kindred with every faction except the Maladhrim, and there he has no rep at all so far. Most of my other characters are Kindred with several factions.)

Originally Posted by whheydt

While I don't think rep gating for crafting is a very good idea, I don't consider it a show-stopper. There are reliable ways to gain rep, even if some of them are time consuming. (I don't object to grinds per se, I object to ones that don't show any progress. Comes to that, my main is Kindred with every faction except the Maladhrim, and there he has no rep at all so far. Most of my other characters are Kindred with several factions.)

Rep grinding are only for those who can afford to spend a lot of time in the game regardless how easy or reliable some may considered it is in this game. It is not a good method for crafting progression especially to casual players like me who only spent few hours a week.

And aye, one must be exaggerating or is extremely lucky to be able to score 5-6 flakes in a 20min run. When I was trying to make that set for my toon back then, I have spent at least an hour daily running node run and if lady luck is with me, I might hit 2 or 3 flakes in a week, but when lady luck is not with me, I may not even get one for weeks.

You can barter for the single use recipes with silver branches on the docks in Loth or CG.

The craft guild recipes have a timer because they are a automatic crit result of the single use recipes.

Originally Posted by Soulhacker

If you think finding the flake plus a timeout is a big issue for crafters, wait till you see them add in reputation requirement. Ooops. They already did. >_<

QFT. I'm a crafter/altaholic that had everything covered in SoA and now doesn't even log my crafters in, lol.

Oh boy, I can level to 58 and then holla at trees and scold drunk elves before I can make a waybread? how about I just buy the **** off the AH and leave my guilded/SM cook @ level 23 in the shire?

(Still miffed I had to split tinker out into two guys from SoA anyway for the guilds in the first place... no less level/rep grind 'em both)




@OP:
Mining is the OP gathering profession. That's where I get most of my flakes.

Originally Posted by Soulhacker

Rep grinding are only for those who can afford to spend a lot of time in the game regardless how easy or reliable some may considered it is in this game. It is not a good method for crafting progression especially to casual players like me who only spent few hours a week.

.

It is less time to get the elf rep you need for the recipes than it is to raise one craft one tier. Honestly. Lothlorien and Mirkwood rep is very easy to get.

I've never gotten 5-6 flakes in 20 minutes (got 3 once, but that was difference sources). But I did get a mithril flake from an ore node last week (I'm not really doing much prospecting right now; nothing I need mats for).

Whheydt,

Which lvl 58 recipe are you talking about? There are no gear recipes on the guilds that aren't available as regular recipes. They might be drop only, so that might pose a problem. I suspect that most people questing just vendor all those recipes now. They are quite common.

Originally Posted by Vormaerin

It is less time to get the elf rep you need for the recipes than it is to raise one craft one tier.

But leveling from 13>58 takes a lot longer.

Rep quests have level limits.








*edit*

I'm not so much upset w/ the change itself but that I've consistently re-worked my alts due to changes. I've done weaponsmith 3 times now.

Well, I'm afraid you get zero sympathy from me for the twinked crafting alts who can't tie their own shoes without help.

Its been pretty obvious all along that Turbine expected players to level their crafters. The fact that you could get around that doesn't mean it was something you deserve to do forever and ever.

I am not going to argue with you, because from your multiple inflammatory posts, it appears you have already made up your mind about this subject.

However, I will present my opinion:

Turbine LOVES crafting. Almost every expansion and book update seems to touch on some aspect of crafting at least a little bit, refinining it and keeping it interesting for us. (We may not be happy with every change, but at least the professions aren't completely stagnant.)

There are entire forums dedicated to each crafting profession. Enthusiastic players there offer many helpful tips, such as how to plan ahead for the kinds of frustrating situations you're encountering now.

There is also a Suggestions forum, where you are welcome to provide your constructive feedback regarding any aspect of the game. There are tons of good suggestions in there regarding crafting, so perhaps you could add your own, or offer your opinion on others' suggestions.

Whenever there's a thread like this invariably people poke their heads in to tell others how easy something is. Easy for who? Not every character is like every other. Not every class is like every other. Some can solo the rare elites easy enough, others cannot.

The response to this is usually, "I have no sympathy for you if you a) picked the wrong class, or b) don't have the right gear or build, or c) aren't playing the game right.

There's a lack of empathy running around. I don't mean that people don't care about others (though in some cases that's true enough) but that people are showing the lack of ability to see past their own nose, to put themselves in another player's boots and understand that just because something is easy for them, it doesn't mean it's easy for everyone. Easy is relative.

In no small part, the same goes for Turbine. It's clear they're telling us that we haven't been playing correctly, and so they put up barriers to force us down the One True Path. After all, there's nothing more enjoyable than an MMO that has all the flexibility of a console game.

Originally Posted by Northwoods

Whenever there's a thread like this invariably people poke their heads in to tell others how easy something is. Easy for who? Not every character is like every other. Not every class is like every other. Some can solo the rare elites easy enough, others cannot.

The response to this is usually, "I have no sympathy for you if you a) picked the wrong class, or b) don't have the right gear or build, or c) aren't playing the game right.

There's a lack of empathy running around. I don't mean that people don't care about others (though in some cases that's true enough) but that people are showing the lack of ability to see past their own nose, to put themselves in another player's boots and understand that just because something is easy for them, it doesn't mean it's easy for everyone. Easy is relative.

In no small part, the same goes for Turbine. It's clear they're telling us that we haven't been playing correctly, and so they put up barriers to force us down the One True Path. After all, there's nothing more enjoyable than an MMO that has all the flexibility of a console game.

I'm not sure if any of your remarks are meant to be sarcastic, but there are some times when empathy is appropriate, and some times when corrective action is required.

If your child is at home ranting and pouting because you won't let him play with his favorite toy until after dinner, you may empathize with him and find another entertaining activity for him to do in the meantime. If, however, your child is doing this in public (for example, in the middle of a shopping mall), you'll want to take control of that situation right away.

Yes, crafting can be difficult, require patience, cost money, and be somewhat frustrating at times. However, one player's hyperbolic outburst and pouting on the forums does not call for empathy. It calls for an immediate (but hopefully gentle) corrective response. Granted, some of the responses were less gentle and more antagonistic, but the original poster did seem to incite that kind of antagonism.

Originally Posted by Vormaerin

Well, I'm afraid you get zero sympathy from me for the twinked crafting alts who can't tie their own shoes without help.

Its been pretty obvious all along that Turbine expected players to level their crafters. The fact that you could get around that doesn't mean it was something you deserve to do forever and ever.

1) I don't need your sympathy, nor did I ask for it. note I rework professions, a number of times, and am just tired of doing so. My desire is for Turbine to have thought about it in SoA, when I rolled most of my characters.

2) The initial SoA design had it possible to create every item in the game on 4 toons level 1. The only advantage of leveling them was better crit chances, which was significant. "rep gated" scrolls (aka quest rewards) were not BoA, so you could mail them.

I don't 'deserve to play' the game more than any other player, nor do I hold my opinion as the only opinion.

However, the changes w/ MoM w/ the addition of guilds forced a 4>7 increase in toons to do what I could do previously, and rep-gating then took that 7 from level whatever to a minimum of level 58.

Doing this alienated the 'casual crafter' or 'be able to make everything' player. Turbine can do what they want w/ their game, but I no longer care to craft and as a result have closed my second account that existed for no other reason than to support my crafting toons.

Originally Posted by ericlewis

the only problem i have with crafting is the symbol drop and whoever though of gating crafting behind combat should be fired, end of line.

While I'd prefer crafting to be totally removed from combat and character level entirely, that's not how the system is designed. With that in mind, making a material used for crafting the best items in the game somewhat difficult to obtain is almost a no-brainer. Going forward, it's almost guaranteed that acquiring the symbols will become easier.

Originally Posted by whheydt

Where is a non-guild L58 recipe?

Does it have to be 58? What about a teal 56 item or something? I don't know the item output levels offhand, but a missing point or two isn't going to hurt your character.

Originally Posted by Fredelas

However, one player's hyperbolic outburst and pouting on the forums does not call for empathy. It calls for an immediate (but hopefully gentle) corrective response.

Unless the OP is your child, how is it your (or anyone other than the forum mod's) place to provide corrective action? If I see a child misbehaving in a mall, I walk away. If I engage him, well, I'd rather not get into a shouting match with a child. It wouldn't speak well of me.

The OP had some valid points. Not everyone may agree with them, or like the tone, but that makes them none the less valid if we're willing to look at them from his perspective, instead of our own. I'm not in complete agreement with the OP, but I try and understand what he's saying and why, and in doing so can see things I do agree with.

If a poster has a history of behaviour that annoys you, put that poster on ignore. Or negative rep them, if that's your cup of tea. But trying to correct them? How does one correct an opinion? Who is justified in judging the correctness of an opinion?

This is the statement I felt needed correction:

Originally Posted by whheydt

Why is it that one can only do one recipe per week AND you need a very rare item to do it? Isn't one of the other constraint sufficient to restrict the crafting? Why does it have to be both?

Hence my title for this thread.

Including a recipe that has a one week cooldown and also requires "a very rare item" is not evidence that "Turbine Hates Crafting". It is merely evidence that crafting more powerful items requires some research, investment, and forethought.

Using such a loaded word in the post's title ("Hates") is guaranteed to provoke emotional responses on a public forum. It is not a good way to begin a rational discussion or solicit balanced feedback.

If you make small and medium symbols, you can turn them in at the guild leader for the next level up symbol. It will shorten the time from 7 weeks (6 armor pieces plus cloak) to 5 or even 4 (i havent done the math, but it will shorten it by at least 2 weeks).

And yes, mithril flakes are abundant. Walking a circle around Lothlorien can get you 2-8 flakes depending on time of day, amount of people logged in and in the area, and luck. My record is 8 on my warden explorer. And that is one trip around Lothlorien doing the daily quest to max out the rep.

Yes, flakes do still come off nodes. I have several times, recently even, gotten mithril flakes off of consecutive nodes, and not even rich gold nodes either.

But if you're looking at making tier 6 armour, you may just want to wait and get the moria medallion radiance set instead when your alt gets to 60. 1 level below max armour isn't a huge deal for most characters (Guardians are a must for top level armour).

I don't see it as a lack of empathy, but I do see it as unrealistic expectations on the part of some players who want to redesign the game from moment to moment to suit their present desires. Suppose Turbine took every one of these type suggestions to heart and implemented them. Within a few months, no game because it would be as boring as all get out.

Originally Posted by whheydt

I have gotten one flake off a named in the Water Works. What I need is a regular supply--and that isn't trivial. Also, it still begs the question of why one has a one week cooldown to make an essential ingredient AND you need a flake. Isn't one or the other sufficient?

Well if you insist on not using skirmishes for flakes and 700s per flake is too much for you, just go do a lap around Lorien and Moria and kill all the rare elites that drop flakes. There's a lot more than just the water works.

Here's a ton of flake droppers in Lorien
http://jome.me/files/storage/lotro-loth-flakes.jpg

Moria and Mirkwood also have a lot of flake droppers.

Also, make sure you make the small and medium guild crafting symbols to trade up for bigger ones. You can pretty much double your rate of getting large symbols this way.