Resources are a finite quantity, at least the last time I worked in a software dev dept. they where. So if you are using them for skirmishs they are obviously being removed from another area or at the least could have been applied to it. Sorry you have logic failure on this one.
As far as what they are, skirms are like mini arcade games, ie. very repetitive and quickly stale. I really can't speak for everyone playing lotro but I think it's a very safe assumption that most mmo-rpger's don't really play them because they have any similarity w/ an arcade game, in fact I would say it's almost exactly the opposite.
For you Turbiners deluded into believing the LoTRO community is in love w/ Skirms, time for a quick dose of reality. Sorry to pee in your cornflakes bud, but you are dead wrong if you think this is some sort of magic cake.
Thanks Delirium. That is a perfectly rational and completely non-delirious point of view. Turbine is not a massive company on the order of Blizzard, and I think their decisions on resource allocations are not made lightly. Resources spent on skirmishes are resources not being spent elsewhere. There can only be a zero sum analysis in the context of finite resources. Simple, really.
Thanks Delirium. That is a perfectly rational and completely non-delirious point of view. Turbine is not a massive company on the order of Blizzard, and I think their decisions on resource allocations are not made lightly. Resources spent on skirmishes are resources not being spent elsewhere. There can only be a zero sum analysis in the context of finite resources. Simple, really.
Which is part of the OP. Skirmishes and their required resources may very well undermind the development of everything else. We can only ask that the balance be tilted in the favor of new-lands in the meantime.
Which is part of the OP. Skirmishes and their required resources may very well undermind the development of everything else. We can only ask that the balance be tilted in the favor of new-lands in the meantime.
Oh, I know alec. After all, the OP was posted by...me.
Ya, great reason for not having much else in the expansion. I understand adding to the skirmishes, but they really couldn't have a bit more. Sorry, content release is still the lightest they have ever done. Of course, this will be until the next one since each one seems to get lighter than the one before.
Which is part of the OP. Skirmishes and their required resources may very well undermind the development of everything else. We can only ask that the balance be tilted in the favor of new-lands in the meantime.
My view: Skirmishes or no, there weren't going to be any new lands in Book 1. Look at the story line.
New lands are always my #1 desire as well, but I think the decision on how much new land to offer was made long before the changes to skirmishes were scheduled. I think "more new zones" deserves its own push. "Less skirmishes" is not the best way to achieve it.
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"There are many powers in the world, for good and for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming. "
Resources are a finite quantity, at least the last time I worked in a software dev dept. they where. So if you are using them for skirmishs they are obviously being removed from another area or at the least could have been applied to it. Sorry you have logic failure on this one.
Last time I managed a software team (which was, well, today) there were different resources available to me. That is I had a network team, an hardware team, and a software team. We are a small group (MUCH smaller than Turbine) and, as such, we have a certain amount of over lap. Yet the idea is the same. I may have five people available to me but only three can realistically work on a network stability issue.
For person D (assuming the A, B, and C are my network team) I can't simply have them do network maintenance as they know little more than a random programmer on the matter. Yes, better than say a secretary but not enough to do the work. Indeed, it would take *more* work to get them up to speed and able to produce than to simply not use them Further it adds too much complexity to their life and other things have to slide - specifically things they are truly expert as. So I extend dev time to bring them on.
I do not know what the individuals expertise is that work on Skirmishes - unless you are in Turbine neither do you. They do have to be taken from somewhere else but we do not know where. Is the team taken from the ones that would otherwise add to skill fixes? If so then their time is better spent on Skirmishes. Are they ones that work on end game content? Then probably better elsewhere. I do not know and neither do you.
Yes, there are finite resources, but that doesn't mean they were taken from places they would be better off. It simply means that your team needs to expand. If there isn't the revenue to do so then you need to look at other issues (overhead, your charges for the service, etc - heck even viability of your business model. There are times that the market simply will not accept the charges needed for the given service and you have to accept that your product just dies), especially if as is normal for software firms and your resources are already spread thin (I've yet to be in one that isn't and a software engineer/computer scientist it is all I do).
That is the reality of software project management and isn't really that hard to understand in the industry above entry level programmers. Sorry *you* have a logic failure on this one, but oh well - you aren't the only one that never understands why. It is basic project management even outside of software - you aren't going to put your automobile engine mechanics on body work even though most probably know something of it anyway. Yet they are all on the same "team" so to speak. You hire more body work people if you need it.
New lands are always my #1 desire as well, but I think the decision on how much new land to offer was made long before the changes to skirmishes were scheduled. I think "more new zones" deserves its own push. "Less skirmishes" is not the best way to achieve it.
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More new zones, by itself, has been on these forums "forever", to no avail. So hopw else do you achieve it?
And as to the body mechanic analogy, well, there's a difference here.
Those 'guys' assigned to skirmishes - they can and already have worked on other parts of lotro, and therefore could help with developing other areas. They're not 1-trick ponies dedicated to skirmishes.
Again, not saying I don't think there should be no more skirmish development, rather, I'm just acknowledged the OP's point.
Last edited by aleczander; Feb 11 2010 at 11:38 AM.
Reason: typo
Because as enchanting as they are atm, they will soon pale as the next 'great' thing comes along. They'll probably maintain some popularity, either as a way to help level an alt toon, or as a source of alternative xp/fun but I highly doubt we're going to see more skirmishes only, and less storyline. Only time will really tell, though, so frankly, it's a moot point. Submit your worry and move on.
Wingwoz (on hunters in LOTRO), "I prefer to think of them more like Elvis or James Dean. Terminally self indulgent but their presence in a party, nay, the very fact that they ever existed, makes the world a cooler place."
'Zairente hums, "Little rabbit Poo-kie / running through the Di-res / scooping up the Mon-archs / and BANGING 'em on the head."' The Antics and Ramblings of Family Nenaelin
More new zones, by itself, has been on these forums "forever", to no avail. So hopw else do you achieve it?
And as to the body mechanic analogy, well, there's a difference here.
Those 'guys' assigned to skirmishes - they can and already have worked on other parts of lotro, and therefore could help with developing other areas. They're not 1-trick ponies dedicated to skirmishes.
Again, not saying I don't think there should be no more skirmish development, rather, I'm just acknowledged the OP's point.
This.
Of course, if it was clear that the people working on Skirmishes would otherwise be working on cleaning the bathrooms, I would not have posted this post. However, Jwbarry and the team working on Skirmishes are highly skilled devs who have, and still do, work on other complex projects. Therefore, they certainly could be spending time on other things.
The simple fact of the matter is that Turbine is putting some of its best people on the Skirmish job. That shows they are serious about Skirmishes being far more than just a side-element. I find that disappointing.
Because as enchanting as they are atm, they will soon pale as the next 'great' thing comes along. They'll probably maintain some popularity, either as a way to help level an alt toon, or as a source of alternative xp/fun but I highly doubt we're going to see more skirmishes only, and less storyline. Only time will really tell, though, so frankly, it's a moot point. Submit your worry and move on.
I hope so. My main concern, however, is for what is happening now in the life of LOTRO. I don't think I only speak for myself when I say that it feels as if things are stagnating a bit. If, in the coming months following the release of the next book, it becomes clear that we will be moving towards a comprehensive and substantial expansion, with a lot of new territory to explore, then I will be happy. But I think it needs to happen sooner rather than later - and it needs to be bigger and more enjoyable than SoM.
Enedwaith, if indeed we will be going there next, looks promising. Let's get there and get going. Though, I hope skipping around the River Anduin, rather than travelling down it, doesn't mean we won't be getting the Argonath. Must. Have. The. Argonath!
I hope so. My main concern, however, is for what is happening now in the life of LOTRO. I don't think I only speak for myself when I say that it feels as if things are stagnating a bit. If, in the coming months following the release of the next book, it becomes clear that we will be moving towards a comprehensive and substantial expansion, with a lot of new territory to explore, then I will be happy. But I think it needs to happen sooner rather than later - and it needs to be bigger and more enjoyable than SoM.
Enedwaith, if indeed we will be going there next, looks promising. Let's get there and get going. Though, I hope skipping around the River Anduin, rather than travelling down it, doesn't mean we won't be getting the Argonath. Must. Have. The. Argonath!
Honestly, I really hope so. I've noticed that the focus has become end-game raiding and skirmishes. As someone who doesn't raid (it's a time issue with me as much as I would LOVE to raid), I more enjoy traveling the lands, seeing how the story ties in to the Fellowship, and feeling challenged by instances. I honestly love the skirmishes but I don't do them that often (not a grinding kinda guy. I play when I can). The problem is there's hardcore end-gamers who need the raids to keep them going and that's where a lot of effort has been going into as well.
Yet with this new update, Skirmishes are a huge focus -- mostly because they're slightly irritatingly broken in a few ways -- and I'm sure there will be more updates concerning this in the future as well.
I would love to see new land, new places to explore, and continual development there like we used to feel during Shadows of Angmar. I don't believe you ever can go backwards in terms of what's been developed... but I'm not enjoying the focus on raiding, end-game, and skirmishes. That being said, I'm just one casual gamer. ;-)
We'll see what the future holds. I'm hoping this all measures up to something VERY exciting in the next few updates! I can keep hoping of course (and I will). Especially since I have many other games I cycle through as well. LOTRO isn't the only game I play so it stays pretty fresh for me no matter what they do.
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I do not know what the individuals expertise is that work on Skirmishes - unless you are in Turbine neither do you. They do have to be taken from somewhere else but we do not know where. ....
umm actually we DO know that ZC and JwBarry are very capable class and world content designers so that much of your rather windy diatribe is wrong.
Look I'm not trying to say skirmys are complete fail, they are what they are, people will like them for a moment then they are old. The problem is the reliance on them as a substitute for continued content development.
We've already read the clips about the Turbine managers having bright eyed moments over reusable code/content with skirms, my point is I don't think this is what people want. I can only speak for myself but I don't see this as a panacea for mmo design, and the notion that Turbine has struck gold with this is a mistake. They need to realize this before it does more harm to Lotro, that's all.
There are any number of things that can be done to add to game activity, a new pvp zone with arenas would go a helluva long way for keeping players interested between zone expansions. Unless they are writing the sunset code for lotro to cash out, they need to plan more carefully and that means using resources wisely.
umm actually we DO know that ZC and JwBarry are very capable class and world content designers so that much of your rather windy diatribe is wrong.
IMO, strcpy's contribution to the debate was not "windy", and it was certainly not a diatribe. In fact, your contribution would fit better as an example of "a bitter or abusive speach or writing" than does his: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diatribe
What is more, we may know that ZC and JWBarry are skilled class AND content world designers; but we do not know from that what they would have been doing had they not been working on skirmishes. When Turbine decided to make skirmishes the centerpiece of SoM, they did so at the expense of something else, and it wasn't epic quest line, nor of new lands (both of which we got in abundance in SoM). Perhaps we got skirmishes instead of a new, lore breaking class; or instead of a few more 6 man instances. Unless you are in the design loop for LotRO, you do not know - so strcpy's point is valid.
Look I'm not trying to say skirmys are complete fail, they are what they are, people will like them for a moment then they are old. The problem is the reliance on them as a substitute for continued content development.
We've already read the clips about the Turbine managers having bright eyed moments over reusable code/content with skirms, my point is I don't think this is what people want. I can only speak for myself but I don't see this as a panacea for mmo design, and the notion that Turbine has struck gold with this is a mistake. They need to realize this before it does more harm to Lotro, that's all.
This is what I don't understand. There is no indication that Turbine is rellying on skirmishs as a substitute for continued content development. On the contrary, the big release of skirmishes accompanied a the release of new land area, of more instances, and of the extension of the epic quest line. SoM would have been a good solid expansion even without the skirmishes.
There is some indication that Turbine will be using the skirmish format as a complement to content development. Some epic quests will, in the future be completed in skirmishes. The question is, what is wrong with that? Is the six person fellowship instance sacred so that only they can be used to complete epic quest lines? Obviously not.
Currently LotRO has 24 world instances, 4 or 5 raid instances, 6 major public dungens (with apparently 2 more on the way), and inumurable single quest instances (public and private). It now also has 11 skirmishes, 5 of which require completion of epic quests to unlock. That is hardly unbalanced, nor any sign that Turbine thinks it only needs to develop skirmishes from now on.
There are any number of things that can be done to add to game activity, a new pvp zone with arenas would go a helluva long way for keeping players interested between zone expansions. Unless they are writing the sunset code for lotro to cash out, they need to plan more carefully and that means using resources wisely.
What the game definitely does not need at the moment is a new pvp zone. Any such zone must occupy a defined space in the game world, and must fit coherently. Transparently there is no space available for a new pvp zone in Eriador. Possibly a new PvP zone could be situated in the upper vale of the Anduin, but such a development must wait the development of Northern Mirkwood (or possibly Gladden Fields) as a PvE area to have a coherently connected zone.
Likewise it certainly does not need any PvMP arenas, which would be an even more flagrant violation of the lore than Rune keepers.
Interesting you say this as the first content release comes out after Mirkwood that is 95%...... skirmishes!!!
Originally Posted by aleczander
nah.. more like 75%
but really, skirmishes are fine as "filler", but it's time for a real update with all the trimmings.
Neither. More like 25%.
25% 3 12 man skirmishes using existing skirmishes, and a single new very er...simple skirmish
25% Various crafting recipe changes and additions
25% Inspired Greatness implementation and adjustments for allowing players to complete Vol1 solo (and subsequently farm marks of triumph)
25% Vol III, Book 1. No new landmass, but several fairly interesting interior "dungeons" are used throughout. It's a relatively short book, but there's definitely more bang for your buck when it comes to content within it - and just very cool in general.
I got bored of skirmishes after the first month. I honestly cant see any other reason to do them unless you need empowerment scrolls or your kinmates need help.
They just get too stale.
Last edited by TheCrusher; Feb 13 2010 at 02:03 PM.
Grievous
The Snowreap Overseer says, "Add that body to the fire."
I've been a little pissed about this for awhile and finally found a place to SHARE what the latest and greatest update/x-pac did to us.
Sheer genius in the making:
Step 1: Screw all the players that ground out 1st age LI's by making them worthless.
Step 2: Make all tiers on NEW LI legacies worthless.
Step 3: Devise a system to upgrade worthless LI legacies to make them worthwhile.
Step 4: Make skirmishes the vehicle to upgrade fail LI legacies in order to own a usable LI that hearkens back to the majesty of the original 1st ages, but of course, falls short.
Step 5: Praise the success of skirmishes when in fact people are just trying to earn back what they already earned once before and were robbed of.
The only reason to run skirms more than once (once for the experience, not reward) is to attempt to get back what was taken from us with the UPGRADE.
Granted, level 65's are a leetle nicer with crafted relics and delved levels, but they could have made that retroactively compatable too if the intention was to reward the players and not drive them into a new and possibly undesirable system.
The Grind-O-Matic is in full force with no signs of slowing.
Vhael, you are correct on all numbered points; however, they are failings of the LI system, not of skirmishes.
But when you say there is no reason to run a skirmish more than once, I cannot agree. A skirmish can be fun on the second or third, or even the twentieth run. The same is true of world instances. There should be no need to run them more than once for rewards, but if that were the case, people would still run them regularly for fun.
Edited to add: you may want to sign the petition on the Legendary Items section of the board.
You made a good point regarding the legendary system, which is completely fail, however, in my case, I still have no reason to run the skirms other than the reasons listed above.
I'd rather run the actual instances that give actual rewards (i.e. jewelry armor, gold, etc.) and perpetuate the storyline as well as contribute to an end result, rather than have to start a new game system all over again. If I wanted another gaming area to have to grind out or a parallel game, I'd run the moors.
Thanks!
Please add a link to the petition you mentioned for ease of signing for all.
I've been a little pissed about this for awhile and finally found a place to SHARE what the latest and greatest update/x-pac did to us.
Sheer genius in the making:
Step 1: Screw all the players that ground out 1st age LI's by making them worthless.
Step 2: Make all tiers on NEW LI legacies worthless.
Step 3: Devise a system to upgrade worthless LI legacies to make them worthwhile.
Step 4: Make skirmishes the vehicle to upgrade fail LI legacies in order to own a usable LI that hearkens back to the majesty of the original 1st ages, but of course, falls short.
Step 5: Praise the success of skirmishes when in fact people are just trying to earn back what they already earned once before and were robbed of.
The only reason to run skirms more than once (once for the experience, not reward) is to attempt to get back what was taken from us with the UPGRADE.
Granted, level 65's are a leetle nicer with crafted relics and delved levels, but they could have made that retroactively compatable too if the intention was to reward the players and not drive them into a new and possibly undesirable system.
The Grind-O-Matic is in full force with no signs of slowing.
/rant
Please someone tell me I'm wrong!
You weren't "robbed" anymore than anyone in SoA was "robbed" of their Rift gear when MoM was released. You only had to start over because the new weapons (5 levels later) were better than your First Age. So yes, damn Turbine for raising the level cap and introducing better weapons.
You made a good point regarding the legendary system, which is completely fail, however, in my case, I still have no reason to run the skirms other than the reasons listed above.
I'd rather run the actual instances that give actual rewards (i.e. jewelry armor, gold, etc.) and perpetuate the storyline as well as contribute to an end result, rather than have to start a new game system all over again. If I wanted another gaming area to have to grind out or a parallel game, I'd run the moors.
Thanks!
Please add a link to the petition you mentioned for ease of signing for all.
Have your say, everyone. LIs are currently the biggest blight on an otherwise good game. The should be, and could easilly be one of its better features.
You weren't "robbed" anymore than anyone in SoA was "robbed" of their Rift gear when MoM was released. You only had to start over because the new weapons (5 levels later) were better than your First Age. So yes, damn Turbine for raising the level cap and introducing better weapons.
He was robbed. There was no need to make Item experience from MoM legendaries not transferable to SoM legendaries. That was simply and attempt to force people to grind content.
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What the game definitely does not need at the moment is a new pvp zone. Any such zone must occupy a defined space in the game world, and must fit coherently. Transparently there is no space available for a new pvp zone in Eriador. .
lol probably the most clueless thing I've seen lately, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
I love the skirmish concept/technology too and look forward to seeing what Turbine will do with that technology.
I don't particularly like a few of the skirmishes so don't do those. Consequently, there are only a couple I focus on as they are fairly quick to get in and get out, which means they would get rather boring if I repeated them over ... and over ... and over. So, I don't.
But there are skirmishes I've never even seen because I'm not at that level yet, so I'm looking forward to the chance to try them. The more available skirmishes, the more skirmishes can remain (or be) fun. If there are only a handful of skirmishes, as there are, those who play them only for the reward will quickly grow to hate them. It's not all that difficult to figure that one out.
I also like skirmishes because skirmish marks make it possible for me to acquire quest items I would otherwise never get. It will take me a lot more time and effort than those who are able to get them the "normal" way, especially as I don't grind for the marks. But, I appreciate that I will finally be able to get those quest items. I hope Turbine continues to add new skirmishes. They can be a fun alternative to reqular play ... in moderation.
I get it that for some people skirmishes are not fun and they feel Turbine should not "waste" any resources/developers/etc. on skirmishes. However. PvP to me isn't fun. I'll even go so far as to say I hate PvP, and think it has absolutely no place in a game like LoTRO.
But you see, to me, Turbine wastes entirely too much time and effort and resources on PvP. Does that mean I believe Turbine needs to remove PvP from LoTRO? No. Of course not. Just because I don't PvP doesn't mean it's an invalid game play. Clearly, there are players who love PvP and may only play LoTRO for the PvP. Just as there are players who love skirmishes as well as players who only skirmish for the rewards.
So ... wouldn't it be silly of me to insist Turbine stop wasting resources/developers/etc. on something just because I don't like it?
Why is it that there can be only one right way to play a game? If it doesn't fit your definition or type of play, it's wrong and needs to be changed? There should be options. Skirmishes are just another option for playing LoTRO. Don't like them. Don't play them. Just as I don't PvP.
Originally Posted by kmcferrin
I enjoy the skirmishes when I run them, but they only make up about half of my play. I typically play solo, and I find them a good way to get on-level item XP for leveling up all of the legendaries that I bind to. I usually level them to about 11 and then deconstruct them for Heritage Runes and Relics. They are GREAT for that.
But what I find more exciting than skirmishes is the skirmish technology itself. There are a large number of instances (especially on the epic storyline) that require grouping. Some of us don't have groups to play with, or have trouble for certain problematic areas (GA, Fornost, etc). If the Skirmish technology could be adapted to allow people or smaller groups to finish these quest instances (scaled to meet the size of the group, of course) then this could be a great way to make frustrating parts of the game more accessible.
lol probably the most clueless thing I've seen lately, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
You often come across, in these forums, people so incapable of expressing a coherent point of view that all they can do is insult.
It is delightfull when, in doing so, they reveal their complete ignorance on the topic, as Delerium had done.
Perhaps Delirium would like to point out which part of Eriador, currently unmapped by Turbine, he would use as a PvMP zone. Perhaps he sould like to place one in the South Farthing, or Forlindon? The contradiction to the lore of such sites is self evident. Then again, perhaps he would like to place one in Enedwaith (Tharbad and Dunland)? Of course, such a placement would permanently bar the development of a direct route between Eriador and Rohan for PvE play; something that would seem essential for an epic quest storyline that involves the passage of the grey company through exactly those lands.
Perhaps Delirium merely thinks that because PvMPers desire a new area, they should simply be given one, regardless of lore, and regardless of how it effects the development of the PvE side of the game. If so, he shares with many PvMPers a self centeredness so strong as to amount to a delusional state.
So, in the end, there is only this to be said for Delirium's post - at least he names himself well.
It took me a while to figure out how the skirmish system works, but I kinda like it. But I also think it has potential to ruin the game due to the fact the whole game is becoming instanced zones.
The Skirmishes almost feel like I'm playing a game within a game.
I liked Guild Wars also, but stopped playing it much after realizing most of the game is instanced zones. Everquest went down that same path also, and most of the game became a ghost town, as you don't see people around if they are all in instanced zones.
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What the game definitely does not need at the moment is a new pvp zone. Any such zone must occupy a defined space in the game world, and must fit coherently. Transparently there is no space available for a new pvp zone in Eriador. Possibly a new PvP zone could be situated in the upper vale of the Anduin, but such a development must wait the development of Northern Mirkwood (or possibly Gladden Fields) as a PvE area to have a coherently connected zone.
Likewise it certainly does not need any PvMP arenas, which would be an even more flagrant violation of the lore than Rune keepers.
and how do you know this? there is plenty of space, Nan Gurth, other parts of Angmar, even parts of the Trollshaws not yet accessible...all of those would fit "coherently", arenas are unnecessary but PvP should be embraced and fully explored. it's the most dynamic part of the game. it's the only part that changes day by day, minute by minute. it is the utmost challenge of any player's skills not like some raid where you just memorize the order of things and as long as you're with a group who also has it memorized you'll get your shiny bauble.
the game absolutely needs more pvp, needs more ways to intro pvp to people and make them realize it's fun and part of the game.
8-time Grand Champion Guinness Drinker June 2008 model in "Failmasters of 2008" Calendar Making the world a better place one less pair of pants at a time
and how do you know this? there is plenty of space, Nan Gurth, other parts of Angmar, even parts of the Trollshaws not yet accessible...all of those would fit "coherently", arenas are unnecessary but PvP should be embraced and fully explored. it's the most dynamic part of the game. it's the only part that changes day by day, minute by minute. it is the utmost challenge of any player's skills not like some raid where you just memorize the order of things and as long as you're with a group who also has it memorized you'll get your shiny bauble.
the game absolutely needs more pvp, needs more ways to intro pvp to people and make them realize it's fun and part of the game.
While I agree that some attention to PvMP is needed I fully disagree that it's the most dynamic part of the game. THAT is a matter of personal preference NOT fact. They should not give attention to a specific play style over other play styles. PvMP needs attention because it's been ignored -- I'll give it that. But then again if it changes every day -- day by day, minute by minute, etc -- maybe it doesn't need anything new since it's never the same? You shot yourself in the foot there from a development stand point -- seriously.
You raised some good points with areas -- especially the area up in Angmar, but to develop those areas would go against the true focus of this game -- furthering the epic book content (which doesn't appear to be going backwards in to Angmar/Trollshaws but encouraging the rangers to rally around Aragorn who is travelling away from Eriador atm). I doubt we'll see anything there. The best that can be hoped for is a good implementation of PvMP through a PvMP skirmish system -- that would IMO be super fun. 12 creeps vs 12 freeps in a Skirmish would be a fun fight indeed.
edit in -- I fail to see how going back and forth accross a bridge in the ettenmoors pushing forward and pulling back is anything but boring and repetitive. It's not challenging at all -- no interesting mechanics, etc. Obviously you get a good battle between skilled creeps and skilled freeps and you will have an interesting encounter, however, that's not the norm from my experience. I enjoy PvMP -- it has it's moments, but it has it's incredibly easy and boring moments too -- just like anywhere else in the game. You can also memorize tactics when you get to know raid leaders from the other side -- I've heard numerous times *so and so is leading their raid it looks like -- they're going to do this this and this so we'll do this ..../yawn*
Last edited by musicman2000; Feb 15 2010 at 01:44 AM.
and how do you know this? there is plenty of space, Nan Gurth, other parts of Angmar, even parts of the Trollshaws not yet accessible...all of those would fit "coherently", arenas are unnecessary but PvP should be embraced and fully explored. it's the most dynamic part of the game. it's the only part that changes day by day, minute by minute. it is the utmost challenge of any player's skills not like some raid where you just memorize the order of things and as long as you're with a group who also has it memorized you'll get your shiny bauble.
the game absolutely needs more pvp, needs more ways to intro pvp to people and make them realize it's fun and part of the game.
I know this because of the maps I keep in my head and the spaces that aren't on them.
The first map is the plan map of the LotRO world, including Moria and and Lorien, but not including Southern Mirkwood. You will notice that it is not all at the same scale. In particular, Moria is on a different scale to the regions in Eregion, and I believe Lorien is also. Further, urban areas (Bree, Estelding, Imladris and Caras Galadhon) are on a different scale to the surrounding countryside, resulting in some distortion of the maps.
It is possible that the Ettenmoors are also on a different scale. If the Ettemoors map abuts the Lone-lands map as indicated, than it must have an approximately 3 times smaller scale so that the Hoarwell would match widths. In that case, the Ettenmoors map woud cover a much larger area than it appears to.
If you do not treat the Ettenmoors as being on a different scale, then they must be further north, and further to the East than is represented on this map.
The second map is a reproduction of the Map of Eriador (Map 1) that appears in Lordo of the Rings. It is the map the LotRO maps must try to reproduce to the extent that they remain consistent with the lore.
Clearly there are one or two gaps north of the old Dwarf road in the LotRO map. One between Angmar and Forochel, and one between the Ettenmoors and the North Downs. Of course, the latter one only exists if the Ettenmoors is on the same scale as the other areas in Eregion. Unfortunately, these gaps are more apparent than real - more products of LotRO's distorted scales than actual missing territory from Tolkien's actual map.
The icebay is correctly located (though it is not actually the Icebay of Forochel), but Carn Dum is placed to far east. It should lie due north of the Midge Water marshes, right in the middle of the "gap", but in fact lies due north of Weathertop. As for the gap between the Ettenmoors and the North Downs, to the east side of the North Downs lies an impassabble mountain range, while to the west side of the Ettenmoors is an impassable range of the same composition. This is plainly intended as the spur of the Misty Mountains that defines the southern border of Angmar. (The snow covered mountains in the Ettenmoors are part of the Misty Mountains for they contain the source of the Hoarwell.) That makes this "gap" a solid mountain range, and inappropriate as a new PvMP site.
There are obviously other "gaps" to the west and to the south. Those to the south contain Tharbad and Dunland, however, and are obviously needed for the Epic story line, and hence PvE. Those to the West are, according to lore, under solid Elvish control. What is more, both are far from the Ettenmoors making it inconcievable that the creeps could travel to them quickly. So unless Creeps have toons restricted to just one PvMP area they are not suitable for a new region. Of course, conversely there is no reason in lore, or in game lore for freeps to defend the northern gaps. The area to the east of Nan Gurth, as suggested by you, is of course, the Misty Mountains and thus hardly suitable.
My suggested area, around the Langwell and Greylin East of the Misty Mountains, has several obvious advantages.
First, there is an easy explanation of how the creeps get there from the Ettenmoors. Specifically, the kingdom of Angmar lay on both sides of the Misty Mountains, so there are presumably many northern passes and/or orc tunnels through which they can travel.
Second, there is and obvious explanation of why freep heroes would defend the area. Specifically, the land just south of that is occupied by the Woodsman and Beornings, who rightly fear attack.
Third, that area is plainly not needed for the epic quest line (unless it takes a very surprising turn), so is available for PvMP.
Finally, it is not an area of secure Freep settlement, so there is no reason for it to not have a significant creep presence.
In my opinion, no area west of the Misty Mountains satisfies all these criteria, or in most cases more than one of them. Therefore no area west of the Misty Mountains is suitable for PvMP.
As a final point, if the northen Anduin vale is the new PvMP area, then session play would be based not on rangers but on Beornings, ie, the ability to fight as a giant bear. Don't you think that will draw more people into PvMP?
apparently you are oblivious to the difference between real and virtual space, lmfao at your ridiculous assertions.
If his assertions are ridiculous why not rebuttal what he said? Answer his question -- where would they put it? Enlighten us minions with your heightened intellectualism........
At this point you've only proven that you can insult without any credibility.
While I agree that some attention to PvMP is needed I fully disagree that it's the most dynamic part of the game. THAT is a matter of personal preference NOT fact.
actually no, it is a fact, just because people do the same thing there doesn't make it static. a raid is static, you do it a certain way, receive award, wash - rinse - repeat. now sure you could argue - well, we're going to do it (the raid instance) differently and it's possible you are successful there's a narrow range of possibilities.
the moors, in particular the STAB shuffle (and believe me I ./yawn at it too) is still more dynamic than any content PvEside because it can change, players show up, new classes get their, skill levels change on both sides, and *gasp* a leader of one side my actually try and strategize a bit. it's player-controlled in so many ways, so I'm not sure how that makes it an opinion.
in any case, more time needs to be given to it, I still say regardless of the cartography you can slap it out in east angmar - even one of hte devs (forgot who) said "cranking out landscape" is an easy task. For PvP, you don't necessarily need tons of PvE content built up front, just real estate.
EDIT: Thank you Cutholen for your analysis and for supporting my basic point that we indeed could/should have another PvP area. Yes, fighting as a bear would be awesome. Maybe they could introduce a Gauredain-type creep class or even better...GOBLIN SAPPERS!
Last edited by Viloxus; Feb 17 2010 at 04:56 PM.
8-time Grand Champion Guinness Drinker June 2008 model in "Failmasters of 2008" Calendar Making the world a better place one less pair of pants at a time
in any case, more time needs to be given to it, I still say regardless of the cartography you can slap it out in east angmar - even one of hte devs (forgot who) said "cranking out landscape" is an easy task. For PvP, you don't necessarily need tons of PvE content built up front, just real estate.
While it is always possible to create PvMP zones on pre-existing landscapes, to do so you have to instance the PvMP version; in which case you get something like what I have been suggesting for the next expansion of PvMP, ie, PvMP skirmishes. Of course, you could just have a PvMP zone that coincides geographically with an existing PvE zone but in which events do not coincide because they are different game spaces, but that represents just the sort of triumph of game mechanics over world coherence that I object to. Apart from these two mechanisms, there is no world space available for a PvMP zone between the current Angmar game space and the Misty Moutains.
The difficulty, by the way, is not the PvE elements of the proposed new PvMP zone, but rather connecting it coherently existing PvE zones. Suppose you plan an upper Anduin PvMP zone. Then you need a nearby PvE zone from which Freeps could coherently have travelled to get to the space. Currently, the only "nearby" spaces are southern Mirkwood, Lorien, and concievably Rivendell. Any trip from these, however, would involved crossing multiple non-existent zones which diminishes world coherence. Ideally, we should get a Northern Mirkwood PvE zone, from which we connect to an Upper Anduin PvMP zone. Hence my claim that now is not the time for a new PvMP zone (we need the relevanat PvE zone first).
EDIT: Thank you Cutholen for your analysis and for supporting my basic point that we indeed could/should have another PvP area. Yes, fighting as a bear would be awesome. Maybe they could introduce a Gauredain-type creep class or even better...GOBLIN SAPPERS!
We could have another PvMP zone, and we should have one - just not yet (for reasons given). What we could have now is either PvMP skirmishes, or an expansion of the current PvMP zone (there is room to expand it in the game world both to the south and to the east), and I think the first of these would do more to invigorate PvMP, both by presenting a variety of different situations to fight in; and by eliminating raids, and preventing either side from being massively outnumbered.
Because just north of the upper Anduin is the Ered Wethrin, the home of the Dragons in Tolkien's Middle-earth; a new creep mob for session play could possibly be a Drake (Dragons themselves being overwhelmingly too powerfull). The introduction of a Gauredain, or in my opinion, more interesting, Angmarin, or Goblin Sappers would be more suitable for a new Creep Class, and thus could be done anywhere and anytime.
If his assertions are ridiculous why not rebuttal what he said? Answer his question -- where would they put it? Enlighten us minions with your heightened intellectualism........
At this point you've only proven that you can insult without any credibility.
Blathering on endlessly about carp that isn't even fundamentally true is boring and tedious, and is not worth reading, he's wrong and his faulty verbosity isn't frankly worth my time.
There is no limitation on where you can put a pvp zone, there are places that are better than other's and they are many. Limitations of the simple minded don't interest me.
If the game gets _more_ skirmishes, I'm out of here. Been playing for around 3 years and skirmishes _do not_ feel like end game content to me. There is no randomness to it. It's the same thing over and over and over. It's like turning ore into ingots, except you press buttons to do it.
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