like so many others, i wish there were female dwarves ><
sure, the lore says theyre difficult to tell apart, but what stops the developers to do just that? make an option to choose gender, just make it difficult to tell which gender the creator chose
simple as that
extra work? well sure, but its important to me as a gamer, as well as many others i know
I think dwarves are pretty cool. I find them as one of the best races, next to humans, and elves. I can understand why some classes are playable and some aren't when it comes to dwarves. I can understand guardian and chompion becuase melee seems to be a dwavres forte. Runekeepers are REALLY understandable becuase hello, they're dwarves. Burglars are un playable becuase dwarves are less agile then others. Lore-Masters are beuase they are less magical then others. I can't undersatnd hunters for dwarves though.
like so many others, i wish there were female dwarves ><
sure, the lore says theyre difficult to tell apart, but what stops the developers to do just that? make an option to choose gender, just make it difficult to tell which gender the creator chose
simple as that
extra work? well sure, but its important to me as a gamer, as well as many others i know
It wasn't said that they were merely difficult to tell apart, but that nobody other than another Dwarf could tell that a Dwarf was female when she was dressed for travel (as Dwarven women always would be when away from their halls, on the rare occasions when they were forced to go out and about). Now, we're all 'Men', so naturally we can't spot whatever subtle differences there might supposedly be and so all Dwarves should look the same to us. (If even the Elves couldn't spot the differences, they must have been very slight indeed).
Anyway, it's a lore thing, so you've had it there. Turbine originally considered having WoW-style, beardless, very evidently female Dwarves but that idea was so heavily panned that they dropped it.
Burglars are un playable becuase dwarves are less agile then others.
I think it's because that if there'd been Dwarven burglars around, then Thorin & Co. wouldn't have had to look elsewhere for a Burglar in The Hobbit and would never have hired Bilbo. Things would have turned out very differently, then (very badly, by implication, with Smaug eventually joining forces with Sauron).
Lore-Masters are beuase they are less magical then others.
No, just that Turbine had the RK in mind for them and didn't want them to have both. Dwarves were supposed to be a little bit magical, at least when it came to crafting things. (Mail, blades, doors that you can't see when they're shut, that kind of thing).
I can't undersatnd hunters for dwarves though.
We know from The Hobbit that they used bows for hunting. All right there in the books if you know where to look
I think dwarves are pretty cool. I find them as one of the best races, next to humans, and elves. I can understand why some classes are playable and some aren't when it comes to dwarves. I can understand guardian and chompion becuase melee seems to be a dwavres forte. Runekeepers are REALLY understandable becuase hello, they're dwarves. Burglars are un playable becuase dwarves are less agile then others. Lore-Masters are beuase they are less magical then others. I can't undersatnd hunters for dwarves though.
They are not less agile, they are bulky, that has nothing to do with their agility though.
What proff have you that they are less magical. And for the record, Lore Masters DON'T use magic.
Hunter's aren't hunters to say, they are archers. It is quite well known that the Dwarves had archers, its not an increadibly hard skill to learn. And even if they were hunters, anyone can hunt, how do you think the Dwarves got "Ripe meat, right off the bone" and knew about "salted pork"?
No, just that Turbine had the RK in mind for them and didn't want them to have both. Dwarves were supposed to be a little bit magical, at least when it came to crafting things. (Mail, blades, doors that you can't see when they're shut, that kind of thing).
RK came out a bit after LM, so that shouldn't have an effect on it.
RK came out a bit after LM, so that shouldn't have an effect on it.
They'd planned it out ahead of time, at least in outline. They always said that Dwarves couldn't be LMs because they'd be getting something magical of their own at some point. Not that they'd originally planned to give us Sparky the Wonder-dwarf, mind - that idea was what came along later.
Hunter's aren't hunters to say, they are archers. It is quite well known that the Dwarves had archers, its not an increadibly hard skill to learn.
yet, iirc, medieval archers trained for years to master the bow. it certainly isn't easy. crossbows aren't hard to learn - you coult hand them out to the local thugs, and they'd be able to use them fairly effectively without training other than "point that way." the same folks might never use a bow effectively. i've used both myself, and i couldn't get the hang of the bow (not because of lack of intelligence) yet i'm competent with the xbow. as in, i won't shoot myself with it
likewise for a sword, i can use at a basic competence level. bit more work than the xbow, but again, the bow is harder to learn.
Last edited by Rielthiere; Jun 03 2011 at 08:37 PM.
Reason: fixed quote tag
It wasn't said that they were merely difficult to tell apart, but that nobody other than another Dwarf could tell that a Dwarf was female when she was dressed for travel (as Dwarven women always would be when away from their halls, on the rare occasions when they were forced to go out and about). Now, we're all 'Men', so naturally we can't spot whatever subtle differences there might supposedly be and so all Dwarves should look the same to us. (If even the Elves couldn't spot the differences, they must have been very slight indeed).
Anyway, it's a lore thing, so you've had it there. Turbine originally considered having WoW-style, beardless, very evidently female Dwarves but that idea was so heavily panned that they dropped it.
yeah, and i meant we dont have to be able to tell them apart. theyre difficult to tell apart, so make them that way ingame.
make them impossible to tell apart if they absolutely want to go that way, but such a thing as one different hair/beard style for females or whatever would make such a big difference.
no one who dont look the hair/beard styles up would know if the dwarf was female or male
i, for one, wouldnt care much for the hair/beard/whatever thing that might be done differently, they could be EXACTLY the same to me, as long as i have the option to choose the gender so that at least I know what gender my character is...
and as some other people have mentioned before its those little things like when you summon a fellowship the people get the question "would you like to follow HIM" if its a dwarf that summoned, even if the dwarf in the players eyes is female
sure the lore says its difficult, if not impossible, for other races to tell females and males apart, but the dwarf itself must know what gender it has, does it not?
yeah, and i meant we dont have to be able to tell them apart. theyre difficult to tell apart, so make them that way ingame.
make them impossible to tell apart if they absolutely want to go that way, but such a thing as one different hair/beard style for females or whatever would make such a big difference.
no one who dont look the hair/beard styles up would know if the dwarf was female or male
Any readily visible difference is a no-no. It's as simple as that.
i, for one, wouldnt care much for the hair/beard/whatever thing that might be done differently, they could be EXACTLY the same to me, as long as i have the option to choose the gender so that at least I know what gender my character is...
Female Dwarves would be unplayable as adventurers anyway. They didn't leave their halls unless they had to and they never went to war. That rules out running around bashing Orcs, and so there's no reason the game should directly support them. You've got as much leeway as they can reasonably give you, by making Dwarves of indeterminate gender; really, all player-character Dwarves should be male.
Any readily visible difference is a no-no. It's as simple as that.
Female Dwarves would be unplayable as adventurers anyway. They didn't leave their halls unless they had to and they never went to war. That rules out running around bashing Orcs, and so there's no reason the game should directly support them. You've got as much leeway as they can reasonably give you, by making Dwarves of indeterminate gender; really, all player-character Dwarves should be male.
no hobbits ever left the shire either, unless we all play as bagginsssesss, fighting orcs? fighting in a war? in the big world? and especially, alongside big folk? no. no.
they are not indeterminate either because of the reason stated before; when they need a gender specific pronoun they choose to use him
no hobbits ever left the shire either, unless we all play as bagginsssesss, fighting orcs? fighting in a war? in the big world? and especially, alongside big folk? no. no.
Few hobbits left the Shire, rather. At the very least, others had been on adventures with Gandalf; it says so in The Hobbit:
'Dear me!' he went on. 'Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures? Anything from climbing trees to visiting elves - or sailing in ships, sailing to other shores!'
Regardless of that, playable hobbits are arguably essential in a mass-market game like this, but playable and evidently feminine female Dwarves are not. There's precedent for adventurous hobbits but there's none at all for adventurous female Dwarves. We're also told that female Dwarves never went to war, whereas we know that hobbits would go out to fight when circumstances demanded it (like that unfortunate company of archers who went off to help defend Fornost, and died there).
they are not indeterminate either because of the reason stated before; when they need a gender specific pronoun they choose to use him
Would you have preferred 'it' instead? They're indeterminate as much as they can be, and 'he' is the obvious default pronoun for Dwarves.
yet, iirc, medieval archers trained for years to master the bow. it certainly isn't easy. crossbows aren't hard to learn - you coult hand them out to the local thugs, and they'd be able to use them fairly effectively without training other than "point that way." the same folks might never use a bow effectively. i've used both myself, and i couldn't get the hang of the bow (not because of lack of intelligence) yet i'm competent with the xbow. as in, i won't shoot myself with it
likewise for a sword, i can use at a basic competence level. bit more work than the xbow, but again, the bow is harder to learn.
So, are you trying to say that a race that lives ~250 years and is known to be a warrior race would not have the ability to be competent in either weapon.... I think not.
Dwarf lovers abound and haters alike. I love the discussion. Waxe's constant badgering for an elite class must pay off at some point and I have to agree as an ancient race the dwarves probably played a hand in just about every heavy weapon development to crude to be carried by an elf.
Few hobbits left the Shire, rather. At the very least, others had been on adventures with Gandalf; it says so in The Hobbit:
'Dear me!' he went on. 'Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures? Anything from climbing trees to visiting elves - or sailing in ships, sailing to other shores!'
Regardless of that, playable hobbits are arguably essential in a mass-market game like this, but playable and evidently feminine female Dwarves are not. There's precedent for adventurous hobbits but there's none at all for adventurous female Dwarves. We're also told that female Dwarves never went to war, whereas we know that hobbits would go out to fight when circumstances demanded it (like that unfortunate company of archers who went off to help defend Fornost, and died there).
Would you have preferred 'it' instead? They're indeterminate as much as they can be, and 'he' is the obvious default pronoun for Dwarves.
sure a few hobbits have travelled outside the shire, but not many, and absolutely not to fight in the big folks wars. there are no circumstances demanding single hobbits (especially not female ones, note this) to go out into this war the game is about
for that matter dwarves never cared about the other peoples problems either, all they did, if they ever left their home, was to go searching for treasure, which we dont do much with the questlines in this game either. dwarves never went to "save the world" unless it affected them directly
i have not created a dwarf yet because although im not a full out role player i do try to make up a story about my characters, get a proper name and so on. how do you name a character you know is female but will never be mentioned as one? what do you think the proper role players think about this?
if i have not made it clear already, i would prefer it to say "she" if the person was a female. i never wanted dwarves to be completely genderless now, did i?
would you honestly be bothered if the choice was there for the people who want it? it wouldnt affect your gaming now would it? all that would happen would be that you might get surprised, since you obviously consider all dwarves to be male, to see that "she" summoned you occationaly in grouping
sure a few hobbits have travelled outside the shire, but not many, and absolutely not to fight in the big folks wars.
Oh dear. Never been to Fornost in-game, then? Turbine didn't make that story up, in the books the hobbits really did try to help fight Angmar. I always felt rather sorry for them.
there are no circumstances demanding single hobbits (especially not female ones, note this) to go out into this war the game is about
Nope, the game's scenario differs from the book so there are.
for that matter dwarves never cared about the other peoples problems either, all they did, if they ever left their home, was to go searching for treasure, which we dont do much with the questlines in this game either. dwarves never went to "save the world" unless it affected them directly
Not quite, Durin's Folk had fought in the War of the Last Alliance and that was definitely a 'save the world' kind of deal.
i have not created a dwarf yet because although im not a full out role player i do try to make up a story about my characters, get a proper name and so on. how do you name a character you know is female but will never be mentioned as one? what do you think the proper role players think about this?
Proper RPers might remember that female Dwarves didn't get out much, and didn't fight. But since you asked, female Dwarves would have female Norse names, so that's how you might make it evident.
if i have not made it clear already, i would prefer it to say "she" if the person was a female. i never wanted dwarves to be completely genderless now, did i?
Like I said: 'he' is the best you're going to get. The game grudgingly allows you to play a not-definitely-male Dwarf, which is something of a compromise. It could have just said 'male' on the character creation screen, which would have given you no option at all.
would you honestly be bothered if the choice was there for the people who want it? it wouldnt affect your gaming now would it? all that would happen would be that you might get surprised, since you obviously consider all dwarves to be male, to see that "she" summoned you occationaly in grouping
I might occasionally be annoyed, rather. Female Dwarf adventurers are bad RP.
Oh dear. Never been to Fornost in-game, then? Turbine didn't make that story up, in the books the hobbits really did try to help fight Angmar. I always felt rather sorry for them.
so it happened once. what does that prove? hobbits did not go to war, hobbits did not venture out of the shire (unless a certain wisard came along) and i can promise you there were no female hobbits there.
conclusion; hobbits are not adventurers and does not "fit in" in this type of game, but theyre (females especially) there anyway and you know why? because its a game. so why wouldnt females dwarves be around?
there. should. be. an. option.
simple as that
Not quite, Durin's Folk had fought in the War of the Last Alliance and that was definitely a 'save the world' kind of deal.
yes this was a war that would probably ruin the world if sauron won it, correct? biggest war in the history of the third age.
one that without a doubt would have affected the dwarves.
they did not join to "help out". dwarves never did.
Proper RPers might remember that female Dwarves didn't get out much, and didn't fight. But since you asked, female Dwarves would have female Norse names, so that's how you might make it evident.
"proper" RPers also lives peacefully as a hobbit family in the shire. what forces RPers to take their female dwarf into war?
Like I said: 'he' is the best you're going to get.
yes and this is the reason i posted in the thread in the first place. to suggest a change.
The game grudgingly allows you to play a not-definitely-male Dwarf, which is something of a compromise. It could have just said 'male' on the character creation screen, which would have given you no option at all.
yeah and that wouldve been awful. nonetheless i was dissapointed when i was not allowed to choose the gender. to me it seemed like the creators of the species are along the humans (and other creatures?) that believe there are no dwarf women. like its so obvious dwarves are only males so why even make an option to choose gender?
thats what it FELT like, not saying thats the way it is
I might occasionally be annoyed, rather. Female Dwarf adventurers are bad RP.
yeah, well, the people who want the option wouldnt care about you being annoyed. let people play the game the way they want to, unless not even the creators of the game is allowing this to happen by not allowing picking a gender
so it happened once. what does that prove? hobbits did not go to war, hobbits did not venture out of the shire (unless a certain wisard came along) and i can promise you there were no female hobbits there.
conclusion; hobbits are not adventurers and does not "fit in" in this type of game, but theyre (females especially) there anyway and you know why? because its a game. so why wouldnt females dwarves be around?
Read what I said. There's precedent for adventurous female hobbits because some had gone on adventures with Gandalf. There's no precedent for female Dwarves doing the same. I shouldn't have to point out that Dwarves were not like hobbits. Didn't you know there were a lot fewer female Dwarves than male? Their whole society was different because of that.
So no, there's no reason for any further option than you have already. It's not supported in any way, not even the slightest, by the source material. Tolkien expressly said that female Dwarves did not go out and fight.
yes this was a war that would probably ruin the world if sauron won it, correct? biggest war in the history of the third age.
one that without a doubt would have affected the dwarves.
they did not join to "help out". dwarves never did.
Again: read, please. Some did join in. Some even fought for Sauron. Most stayed out, not all. But that's how Dwarves are characterised: on the whole, they were natural outsiders.
"proper" RPers also lives peacefully as a hobbit family in the shire. what forces RPers to take their female dwarf into war?
If anyone wants to give a 'female' Dwarf a female name and then hang around Thorin's wearing a robe and RPing as female (and leaving the character as a pure RP lowbie), I've got nothing against that. Anything else would be dreadful RP, to the extent that even the game shrinks away from actively supporting it.
yes and this is the reason i posted in the thread in the first place. to suggest a change.
The implication of what I said was that what there is now is the best you're ever going to get. You may have noticed that this game is pretty casual about lore but still, no evidently female Dwarves. Yes, that's right, something that'd go so very much against the books that even Turbine wouldn't make it an option. It's like not being able to play Rangers or Noldor; some things just don't get any official recognition.
yeah and that wouldve been awful. nonetheless i was dissapointed when i was not allowed to choose the gender. to me it seemed like the creators of the species are along the humans (and other creatures?) that believe there are no dwarf women. like its so obvious dwarves are only males so why even make an option to choose gender? thats what it FELT like, not saying thats the way it is
It seems to me that you're simply expecting the Dwarves to be just like everybody else. Well, sorry, in this setting they most certainly weren't. They weren't even created at the same time as everyone else, or by the same being. If that strikes you as odd that's only because it's supposed to.
yeah, well, the people who want the option wouldnt care about you being annoyed. let people play the game the way they want to, unless not even the creators of the game is allowing this to happen by not allowing picking a gender
Nobody's stopping you playing a 'female' Dwarf right now, so you can play the game how you want to. There's nothing to say that Turbine should fully support it as well.
In any case, as I've already pointed out the devs will only ever give us so much. There are shedloads of players who want to play Rangers, but can they? Hell no. They can RP one, but the game doesn't recognise that in any way. Why should you be any different?
Read what I said. There's precedent for adventurous female hobbits because some had gone on adventures with Gandalf. There's no precedent for female Dwarves doing the same. I shouldn't have to point out that Dwarves were not like hobbits. Didn't you know there were a lot fewer female Dwarves than male? Their whole society was different because of that.
So no, there's no reason for any further option than you have already. It's not supported in any way, not even the slightest, by the source material. Tolkien expressly said that female Dwarves did not go out and fight.
tell me the name of the female hobbits going out to advventures with gandalf. oh, thats right, there arent any
and yes, i know that and i never stated dwarves were like hobbits, i pointed out that because you believe its basically impossible that a female dwarf might venture out of their homes you should also complain about the option to make a female hobbit in the game because they so rarely, if ever, ventured out of the shire, while absolutely not fighting to make a difference in the big folks wars.
Again: read, please. Some did join in. Some even fought for Sauron. Most stayed out, not all. But that's how Dwarves are characterised: on the whole, they were natural outsiders.
again, read, please, dwarves did only ever fight if the outcome of the war would affect their lives.
If anyone wants to give a 'female' Dwarf a female name and then hang around Thorin's wearing a robe and RPing as female (and leaving the character as a pure RP lowbie), I've got nothing against that. Anything else would be dreadful RP, to the extent that even the game shrinks away from actively supporting it.
so why would you not allow the option to choose to create a female?
The implication of what I said was that what there is now is the best you're ever going to get. You may have noticed that this game is pretty casual about lore but still, no evidently female Dwarves. Yes, that's right, something that'd go so very much against the books that even Turbine wouldn't make it an option. It's like not being able to play Rangers or Noldor; some things just don't get any official recognition.
if its the best im ever going to get i do have the right to point out i wish for something else dont i?
if the game is so casual about the lore, like for example around the hobbits, why would an additional option to build up a character the way you want to be something so awful?
not being able to play as a ranger or noldo doesnt bother me or others. but this has obviously got some attention, and that for a reason
It seems to me that you're simply expecting the Dwarves to be just like everybody else. Well, sorry, in this setting they most certainly weren't. They weren't even created at the same time as everyone else, or by the same being. If that strikes you as odd that's only because it's supposed to.
i have no comment about this, since it doesnt have anything to do with anything ive ever said
i did never expect dwarves to be like everyone else, obviously they cant be, being another race and all.
Nobody's stopping you playing a 'female' Dwarf right now, so you can play the game how you want to. There's nothing to say that Turbine should fully support it as well.
yes, however, they do note on several occations through the game that you are male. and there is a certain enjoyment in building your character and actually knowing you made her female
In any case, as I've already pointed out the devs will only ever give us so much. There are shedloads of players who want to play Rangers, but can they? Hell no. They can RP one, but the game doesn't recognise that in any way. Why should you be any different?
and i never stated they wouldnt. however ive stated my wish. is there something wrong with that?
im not saying i, or all other players who wish they could create a female, should be any different, but again i have the right to say what i miss or wish to have out of the game, dont i?
there is really no point in arguing for you, youre not gonna make me feel different about having the option to create a full character, when not choosing a gender the character kinda dies off, it never grows full
nobody would mind if the option was added, however many would be happy. as long as theyd keep it lore-like and make the genders close to, or impossible, to tell apart.
so why. why did you ever feel like you needed to argue about this? if you go nuts about this you should also go complaining about all creatures that tolkien never created, all the people that doesnt exist in the book, the hobbits sitting in a boat in a river fishing, the fact that quests are repeatable with different characters, and that everyone basically is the same hero. you should go complain about the timeline, the sizes of the cities, and the fact that horses come from no where when called and so on.
some people wish to have an option to create a full character, theres nothing wrong with them stating this
anyhow, i have made my point, you have made yours, everyones happy and the world can keep spinning, okay?
tell me the name of the female hobbits going out to advventures with gandalf. oh, thats right, there arent any
I already posted a quote from The Hobbit which said there were '...quiet lads and lasses going off... for mad adventures' in Gandalf's company. See that bit there in bold?
and yes, i know that and i never stated dwarves were like hobbits, i pointed out that because you believe its basically impossible that a female dwarf might venture out of their homes you should also complain about the option to make a female hobbit in the game because they so rarely, if ever, ventured out of the shire, while absolutely not fighting to make a difference in the big folks wars.
If female hobbits went off on adventures with Gandalf then it's not impossible that they could have ended up having to fight, just like Bilbo did (when rescuing the Dwarves from the spiders). Bilbo was hardly a mighty warrior, after all. The point is that female Dwarves got out even less often than female hobbits did.
again, read, please, dwarves did only ever fight if the outcome of the war would affect their lives.
That hardly applies only to them; most people would only ever fight if the outcome would affect their lives.
so why would you not allow the option to choose to create a female?
Because characters are presumed to be adventurers.
if the game is so casual about the lore, like for example around the hobbits, why would an additional option to build up a character the way you want to be something so awful?
Because it would be worse than adventurous hobbits. There was precedent for hobbits getting out and about. I keep saying that, and you keep ignoring it.
not being able to play as a ranger or noldo doesnt bother me or others. but this has obviously got some attention, and that for a reason
Not being able to be a Ranger gets a fair bit of attention (or at least it did, at and before launch - far more than female Dwarves ever did). If it didn't then we wouldn't get people playing Hunters and calling themselves Rangers.
i have no comment about this, since it doesnt have anything to do with anything ive ever said
i did never expect dwarves to be like everyone else, obviously they cant be, being another race and all.
Nuts. You're not getting it: by wanting female Dwarves to be fully recognised irrespective of what made them different, you're wanting them to be just like any other race.
yes, however, they do note on several occations through the game that you are male. and there is a certain enjoyment in building your character and actually knowing you made her female
That's the price you pay for playing a fringe character. You can't expect the game to fully support it, no more than anyone who plays a Hunter and calls themselves a Ranger - they're not going to get all bent out of shape because the game doesn't recognise it, and nor should you. (Anyone who did carp about not being able to play a Ranger would get much the same treatment you're getting - an explanation why they can't, because of what made Rangers different from others).
and i never stated they wouldnt. however ive stated my wish. is there something wrong with that?
im not saying i, or all other players who wish they could create a female, should be any different, but again i have the right to say what i miss or wish to have out of the game, dont i?
Just as I have the right to say there's no reason why you should expect it to change after all this time, when there was a very good reason to make it the way they did in the first place.
there is really no point in arguing for you, youre not gonna make me feel different about having the option to create a full character, when not choosing a gender the character kinda dies off, it never grows full
Oh, for heaven's sake! The game doesn't remind you of that all the time, it's not like there's some huge flashing neon arrow over your character's head saying MALE.
nobody would mind if the option was added, however many would be happy. as long as theyd keep it lore-like and make the genders close to, or impossible, to tell apart.
They should be impossible for us to tell apart, and given that you can always pretend that when the game occasionally refers to your character as male then it's as confused as all the Men, Elves and hobbits are.
so why. why did you ever feel like you needed to argue about this? if you go nuts about this you should also go complaining about all creatures that tolkien never created, all the people that doesnt exist in the book, the hobbits sitting in a boat in a river fishing, the fact that quests are repeatable with different characters, and that everyone basically is the same hero. you should go complain about the timeline, the sizes of the cities, and the fact that horses come from no where when called and so on.
some people wish to have an option to create a full character, theres nothing wrong with them stating this
Don't confuse gameplay with lore. If the devs had wanted, they could have hit you with the lore-stick and made all Dwarven player-characters male. As it is, they've given you all the leeway they reasonably can. It seems you're not even trying to understand the reasoning behind that, and so I've been attempting to explain it to you. Dwarves are supposed to be different to everybody else, and this is one of those things that makes them different.
so why would you not allow the option to choose to create a female?
Because, as has been stated several times, the Dwarves as a people and culture operated differently to Men (and by extention Hobbits) and Elves. The Dwarves are about as male dominated 'race' as you could get, only a single female Dwarf is mentioned anywhere in the works, called 'Dis'. The rest is 'Durin this' and 'Seven Fathers' that etc.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
if its the best im ever going to get i do have the right to point out i wish for something else dont i?
You can wish by all means but to be honest you've already got it good. Strictly speaking all 'races' should have male only characters in my opinion, but that aside I think Turbine have been overly lax leaving Dwarf characters of indeterminate gender, except with the odd mention of 'he' now and again, which I would point out is the default even in our world when refering to something of unknown gender.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
if the game is so casual about the lore, like for example around the hobbits, why would an additional option to build up a character the way you want to be something so awful?
Because unlike other 'races' Tolkien specifically gave information excluding the possibility of Dwarven females participating on the same level as males. He couldn't have been any clearer.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
yes, however, they do note on several occations through the game that you are male. and there is a certain enjoyment in building your character and actually knowing you made her female
There are three other 'races' to choose from that allow female characters - firstly why would you choose the one that has the most lore issues around it regarding this, and secondly why would you want to play a member of a female race where the females look no different to males?
This is a non-issue.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
and i never stated they wouldnt. however ive stated my wish. is there something wrong with that?
im not saying i, or all other players who wish they could create a female, should be any different, but again i have the right to say what i miss or wish to have out of the game, dont i?
No one is arguing against your right to wish or your right to express. We're explaining why things are the way they are and why they should stay that way.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
there is really no point in arguing for you, youre not gonna make me feel different about having the option to create a full character, when not choosing a gender the character kinda dies off, it never grows full
*Points to the other three playable female-allowed races.*
Originally Posted by Elheneb
nobody would mind if the option was added, however many would be happy. as long as theyd keep it lore-like and make the genders close to, or impossible, to tell apart.
How can the option to be a fully playable female Dwarf doing everything a male dwarf can match up to the books version of things? The two are utterly seperated.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
so why. why did you ever feel like you needed to argue about this? if you go nuts about this you should also go complaining about all creatures that tolkien never created, all the people that doesnt exist in the book, the hobbits sitting in a boat in a river fishing, the fact that quests are repeatable with different characters, and that everyone basically is the same hero. you should go complain about the timeline, the sizes of the cities, and the fact that horses come from no where when called and so on.
We could go down the list of all the lore-breaking/bending things in-game if you like, I'm happy to do that in detail. You'd find a surprising amount can be attributed to it being necessary for the games survival (playable Hobbits for example is pretty essential) and those things which do not fall in this catagory you may find can be tied to the lore remotely. Though there are a few things which can't be, and those things a few of us on the EU forums have argued over a fair bit for a few years.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
some people wish to have an option to create a full character, theres nothing wrong with them stating this
1. This isn't something which gets brought up often. Rare in fact. Most accept the explanation and let it go. After all how many concessions has the lore had to make for this game? A fair few.
2. There is nothing wrong with them stating their desires, as I've said. It's wrong when they don't accept the substantial reasoning that determines the current situation. "Because I want to!" doesn't cut it sometimes.
Last edited by Beleg-Of-Doriath; Jun 10 2011 at 04:59 PM.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
about hobbits, i used them as an example to show that they dont fit in greatly in this kind of game, neither does dwarves, so if hobbits are there dwarves should be.
That's the price you pay for playing a fringe character.
i never asked to pay any price. easy as that and i, again, should be allowed to mention this in a thread like this one without ending up in an endless argument with someone who doesnt read what im trying to point out. just accept people think differently than you and that i want my female dwarf.
Just as I have the right to say there's no reason why you should expect it to change after all this time, when there was a very good reason to make it the way they did in the first place.
as i stated, but you again did not read, i have stated my opinion, you have stated yours and were all happy.
i never said you didnt have the right to say all that. neither did i ever say i DO expect a change so there was really no point in you pointing this out to me in the first place, like i said in the previous post.
Oh, for heaven's sake! The game doesn't remind you of that all the time, it's not like there's some huge flashing neon arrow over your character's head saying MALE.
oh, for heavens sake! the game doesnt remind YOU of that all the time, its not like there would be some huge flashing neon arrow over my characters head saying FEMALE
Because, as has been stated several times, the Dwarves as a people and culture operated differently to Men (and by extention Hobbits) and Elves. The Dwarves are about as male dominated 'race' as you could get, only a single female Dwarf is mentioned anywhere in the works, called 'Dis'. The rest is 'Durin this' and 'Seven Fathers' that etc.
does not exclude the precence of female dwarves.
You can wish by all means but to be honest you've already got it good. Strictly speaking all 'races' should have male only characters in my opinion, but that aside I think Turbine have been overly lax leaving Dwarf characters of indeterminate gender, except with the odd mention of 'he' now and again, which I would point out is the default even in our world when refering to something of unknown gender.
in your english speaking world maybe. most other languages around the globe uses a female pronoun as basic. many languages have a specific pronoun for someone or something you dont know the gender of.
either way i never denied that i already have it good, and i never sat down to write a full complaining comment about this. i happened to mention id like to have a choice and all of a sudden ive got this angry dude at me arguing about things i never even said! im perfectly pleased with the dwarven situation, though id like the option to choose a female. simple as that, dont make such a big deal about it
Because unlike other 'races' Tolkien specifically gave information excluding the possibility of Dwarven females participating on the same level as males. He couldn't have been any clearer.
doesnt exclude their entire existance, like this game is doing
There are three other 'races' to choose from that allow female characters - firstly why would you choose the one that has the most lore issues around it regarding this, and secondly why would you want to play a member of a female race where the females look no different to males?
This is a non-issue.
as ive already stated, its a part of creating a character, and i wish to have that freedom. never said i wouldnt make any female other characters. being a female gamer i tend to not be a transgender and have all my characters be female as a representation of myself... but then if id make a dwarf id not even have that option? i dont give a **** about them looking like males, the point is that i wish to have the option, so i can build my character the way i want to
No one is arguing against your right to wish or your right to express. We're explaining why things are the way they are and why they should stay that way.
who said i never knew why things are the way they are?
*Points to the other three playable female-allowed races.*
*points to above comment*
How can the option to be a fully playable female Dwarf doing everything a male dwarf can match up to the books version of things? The two are utterly seperated.
well they do have males venturing out in the first place.
1. This isn't something which gets brought up often. Rare in fact. Most accept the explanation and let it go. After all how many concessions has the lore had to make for this game? A fair few.
2. There is nothing wrong with them stating their desires, as I've said. It's wrong when they don't accept the substantial reasoning that determines the current situation. "Because I want to!" doesn't cut it sometimes.
1. most people accept it, including myself, however i found it surprising to see i didnt have that option when i first started out the game and when finding a thread like this one discussing the race i decided i could mention what i first thought. many others have too, if you go through the thread.
2. dont put words in my mouth or youll get me angry x) not even the other dude has done so so far, he however ignores what im trying to say. i never said i dont accept the way theyve created the game, and as ive stated several times in this comment, i am fully at peace as to how the game is done.
still. all i did was come over here and basically say "aww too bad there arent any female dwarves, it shouldnt be that big deal to add an option to choose gender so why not"
never said i dont accept the situation
never said i demand a change
never said its completely unreasonable to keep the players from having that option
however considering it being a GAME where anyone and basically anything can venture out and save the world a female option wouldnt make that much of a difference, however it would provide a bit of extra joy into making a dwarven character
about hobbits, i used them as an example to show that they dont fit in greatly in this kind of game, neither does dwarves, so if hobbits are there dwarves should be.
Again with the bad logic. Female Dwarves going off on adventures would be even more unlikely than female hobbits doing the same, so you absolutely cannot say that if hobbits are there, so should Dwarves.
i never asked to pay any price. easy as that and i, again, should be allowed to mention this in a thread like this one without ending up in an endless argument with someone who doesnt read what im trying to point out. just accept people think differently than you and that i want my female dwarf.
Just accept that people (and in particular, the devs) think differently to you and think your obviously female Dwarf should not exist. See? That cuts both ways.
oh, for heavens sake! the game doesnt remind YOU of that all the time, its not like there would be some huge flashing neon arrow over my characters head saying FEMALE
One more time: you can play a 'female' Dwarf right now. I'm okay with that (even on the RP server, provided they actually RP like they're a female Dwarf and don't just do the exact same thing as their menfolk). The game would have no business encouraging you by making female Dwarf adventurers fully recognised, though, because under all but the most extreme circumstances female Dwarves wouldn't be out and about at all, far less being adventurers. Token acceptance is the best you can ask for, that's why I'm contending with you for even asking for anything further than that.
Complaining about how female Dwarves aren't given equal footing is like complaining about them having beards and looking like blokes. It's part of who they're supposed to be, simple as that. Deal.
One more time: you can play a 'female' Dwarf right now. I'm okay with that (even on the RP server, provided they actually RP like they're a female Dwarf and don't just do the exact same thing as their menfolk). The game would have no business encouraging you by making female Dwarf adventurers fully recognised, though, because under all but the most extreme circumstances female Dwarves wouldn't be out and about at all, far less being adventurers. Token acceptance is the best you can ask for, that's why I'm contending with you for even asking for anything further than that.
Complaining about how female Dwarves aren't given equal footing is like complaining about them having beards and looking like blokes. It's part of who they're supposed to be, simple as that. Deal.
You should have the option to be a female Dwarf, I am tired of seeing "He" when dealing with a description of something, such as the hunter port skills. I agree though that they shouldn't look any different, or not much than the males, but an option should be there.
It excludes them from doing the kind of things playable characters do.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
in your english speaking world maybe. most other languages around the globe uses a female pronoun as basic. many languages have a specific pronoun for someone or something you dont know the gender of.
I obviously can't vouch for that but that point is irrelevant nonetheless: 'he' is used as a default when refering to something of an unknown gender at least in English which is the primary language of this game (the French/German languages are just used for translation purposes, the game is still fundamentally in English). This would be increased in the case of Dwarves because females play such a minority role in their society.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
either way i never denied that i already have it good, and i never sat down to write a full complaining comment about this. i happened to mention id like to have a choice and all of a sudden ive got this angry dude at me arguing about things i never even said! im perfectly pleased with the dwarven situation, though id like the option to choose a female. simple as that, dont make such a big deal about it
Well that's alright then. You'd like to have the option, that option will never be available (at least it shouldn't ever be anyway), you've got it out of your system and we're all happy.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
doesnt exclude their entire existance, like this game is doing
No one is saying they don't exist. We're saying they play such a minor role in Dwarven society that the game cannot allow playable female dwarves because it would clash with the lore by a significant degree. What the game has done, however, is avoided specifically refering to the Dwarf character as 'male', though there are a few exceptions in-game which can be put down to the difficulty in telling males and females apart.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
as ive already stated, its a part of creating a character, and i wish to have that freedom. never said i wouldnt make any female other characters. being a female gamer i tend to not be a transgender and have all my characters be female as a representation of myself... but then if id make a dwarf id not even have that option? i dont give a **** about them looking like males, the point is that i wish to have the option, so i can build my character the way i want to
As said, the game has done as much as possible to allow you to do that (which is more than I would have done) without directly breaking the lore.
Are you seriously telling me that an occasional in-game reference to your Dwarf being a 'he' is more of a break in your immersion than some of the other things going on in game?
When you're surrounded by rune-keepers, goats and Lore-master pets as well as all the rest of it, the thing that really gets on your nerves is the rare mention of your charatcer being a 'he'? Talk about fiddling while Rome burns...
Originally Posted by Elheneb
who said i never knew why things are the way they are?
There are only two options:
1. You don't know why things are the way they are, and they've needed explaining.
2. You do know why things are the way they are, yet you couldn't care less and would rather the option was added anyway.
Neither casts a very good light.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
well they do have males venturing out in the first place.
Yes, male Dwarves. That's why they are a playable character. There is hardly mention of female Dwarves and when there is it is often to tell you to pretty much forget they exist.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
1. most people accept it, including myself, however i found it surprising to see i didnt have that option when i first started out the game and when finding a thread like this one discussing the race i decided i could mention what i first thought. many others have too, if you go through the thread.
The fact remains you have not answered one simple point:
How can the game allow playable female Dwarves when the lore specifically states their role which is incompatible in all ways with what our characters do?
Originally Posted by Elheneb
2. dont put words in my mouth or youll get me angry x) not even the other dude has done so so far, he however ignores what im trying to say. i never said i dont accept the way theyve created the game, and as ive stated several times in this comment, i am fully at peace as to how the game is done.
I didn't put words in your mouth. You said you'd like to see the option added to the game despite the reaons why it hasn't been done.
Originally Posted by Elheneb
still. all i did was come over here and basically say "aww too bad there arent any female dwarves, it shouldnt be that big deal to add an option to choose gender so why not"
And we're simply telling you the reasons "why not". We're not saying you shouldn't be allowed to ask for it. We're just explaining "why not".
Originally Posted by Elheneb
however considering it being a GAME where anyone and basically anything can venture out and save the world a female option wouldnt make that much of a difference, however it would provide a bit of extra joy into making a dwarven character
The "It's a game" argument has never, never been a valid defense for any idea for the game. The phrase holds no weight whatsoever, it is meaningless. "It's a game" - so lets have robots? Space ships? Unrestricted World PvMP? Where do you draw the line? Using 'It's a game' as a defense means anything can be added, and I'm not just talking from a lore perspective.
Last edited by Beleg-Of-Doriath; Jun 11 2011 at 01:44 PM.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
You should have the option to be a female Dwarf, I am tired of seeing "He" when dealing with a description of something, such as the hunter port skills. I agree though that they shouldn't look any different, or not much than the males, but an option should be there.
Why should it? That is what we're discussing.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
I want to play as a Nazgul and help the Free Peoples. I think the game mechanics should support that.
That is completly different, that BREAKS lore, what I am saying doesn't break the lore, it just goes against the common belief, but tell me as it is set up now, not a single Dwarf is set as male or female... does that mean they are all hermaphrodites? No, they are not. As it stands now, the majority of hobbits would not leave the Shire, yet they have in mass. So, why can't Dwarven females who typically don't leave, just like hobbits, not be allowed to travel, just like hobbits in this game?
What do you have against this anyway, are you an old school sexist or something, because that's kind of what it sounds like to me. I don't mean this as a personal insult, just saying that I don't think your arguments are based on lore as much as another factor.
That is completly different, that BREAKS lore, what I am saying doesn't break the lore, it just goes against the common belief,
You clearly haven't looked into the matter. Female Dwarves are out of sight and mind, they virtually never travel, they comprise of less than a third of the population.
How does this match up with the desire to have them as playable characters roaming all over Middle-earth helping every Tom, Dick and Harry?
Originally Posted by Waxe
but tell me as it is set up now, not a single Dwarf is set as male or female... does that mean they are all hermaphrodites?
No, it is up to the player to decide the gender of the character (unfortunately). The only minor obstacle to this is the occasional reference of 'he' - whch can easily be put down to mistaken identity.
Originally Posted by Waxe
s it stands now, the majority of hobbits would not leave the Shire, yet they have in mass. So, why can't Dwarven females who typically don't leave, just like hobbits, not be allowed to travel, just like hobbits in this game?
Because having Hobbits as a playable race - and everything that comes with that - can be considered an essential aspect for a LotR MMO to work. It is something which plays a huge role in the game. Female Dwarves don't.
Originally Posted by Waxe
What do you have against this anyway, are you an old school sexist or something, because that's kind of what it sounds like to me. I don't mean this as a personal insult, just saying that I don't think your arguments are based on lore as much as another factor.
Do you see me actively arguing for females of the other races to be removed? In my own ideal world where lore and setting would be placed much higher then yes, I probably would go for male-only characters as that would be the most realistic and lore-appropriate thing to do. Unless the game wasn't as combat-orientated as this game was I suppose.
Regardless this particular discussion about female Dwarves is lore-related: I can set my ideal preferences to one side.
(I'd also mention that I'm indifferent to labels.)
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
You clearly haven't looked into the matter. Female Dwarves are out of sight and mind, they virtually never travel, they comprise of less than a third of the population. How does this match up with the desire to have them as playable characters roaming all over Middle-earth helping every Tom, Dick and Harry?
How does this work for Hobbits which didn't travel from the Shire or Bree?
Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath
No, it is up to the player to decide the gender of the character (unfortunately). The only minor obstacle to this is the occasional reference of 'he' - whch can easily be put down to mistaken identity.
So give us the full ability to choose, not just have it there. Because if we can already act as one or the other, then why not make it acceptable. If they don't look any different, then at first glance or under an annymous status, no one who hasn't been told will know they are a female, it would work how it is suppose to.
Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath
Because having Hobbits as a playable race - and everything that comes with that - can be considered an essential aspect for a LotR MMO to work. It is something which plays a huge role in the game. Female Dwarves don't.
Why? Why are they an essential role? Sure, Frodo, Bilbo, Same, Merry, Pippin, and a few other have an influential role because of the role they played in the literature, but that is it, not Holly-no-name-Baggins and Joe Smoe of Tuckborough. Sure they should be the world, but not as playable characters going by your standards. Now, seen as they do have a playable spot, so should female Dwarves, who when we get down to it, the lore has them no different. Oh, female Dwarves never leave the homeland, so what most male Dwarves, Elves, and Humans do the same thing.
How does this work for Hobbits which didn't travel from the Shire or Bree?
Because the lore there specifically allows for exceptions, not least the hobbits who were said to have gone off on adventures with Gandalf.
So give us the full ability to choose, not just have it there. Because if we can already act as one or the other, then why not make it acceptable. If they don't look any different, then at first glance or under an annymous status, no one who hasn't been told will know they are a female, it would work how it is suppose to.
Except that messages from the game (like summons) would reveal that they were female, and that's not on. As it is, there's no means of telling without being told and that's the way it should be.
Why? Why are they an essential role? Sure, Frodo, Bilbo, Same, Merry, Pippin, and a few other have an influential role because of the role they played in the literature, but that is it, not Holly-no-name-Baggins and Joe Smoe of Tuckborough. Sure they should be the world, but not as playable characters going by your standards.
They're in the game because so many people expect them to be playable. Rightfully, no, they should not be going out to fight but the game is only expanding on the exceptions for adventurous hobbits that already exist, and it's altered the setting so that even in the Shire there's some fighting to be done. The devs have effectively wound the clock back a thousand years and given us the feistier, less insular hobbits from back then rather than the ones straight from the book.
There are no such handy exceptions for female Dwarves, no more adventurous past to look back to. They only travelled when circumstances forced them to and they did not go to war, and that's enough to effectively rule them out of being fully supported by the game. It was the male Dwarves who did all the dangerous work like mining plus the trading, adventuring and any fighting, because thanks to the wildly skewed male:female ratio there was a large surplus population of males who had no realistic chance of getting married and so were expendable. The bolder of those Dwarves might as well be daring, going out into the world and risking their necks, because that way there was always a chance of making a ton of money or winning glory in battle and thereby attracting a potential wife. It's those adventuresome male Dwarves who are the real candidates to be player-characters. The devs gave you an option so as not to entirely deny female Dwarves, but they knew full well they'd have no business fully acknowledging them and so they didn't.
Now, seen as they do have a playable spot, so should female Dwarves, who when we get down to it, the lore has them no different. Oh, female Dwarves never leave the homeland, so what most male Dwarves, Elves, and Humans do the same thing.
Nope, the lore does treat them differently. The reason why is explained above: there were far more male Dwarves than female, that being something unique to them. It all stems from that.
Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Jun 12 2011 at 04:36 AM.
Because the lore there specifically allows for exceptions, not least the hobbits who were said to have gone off on adventures with Gandalf.
Except that messages from the game (like summons) would reveal that they were female, and that's not on. As it is, there's no means of telling without being told and that's the way it should be.
They're in the game because so many people expect them to be playable. Rightfully, no, they should not be going out to fight but the game is only expanding on the exceptions for adventurous hobbits that already exist, and it's altered the setting so that even in the Shire there's some fighting to be done. The devs have effectively wound the clock back a thousand years and given us the feistier, less insular hobbits from back then rather than the ones straight from the book.
There are no such handy exceptions for female Dwarves, no more adventurous past to look back to. They only travelled when circumstances forced them to and they did not go to war, and that's enough to effectively rule them out of being fully supported by the game. It was the male Dwarves who did all the dangerous work like mining plus the trading, adventuring and any fighting, because thanks to the wildly skewed male:female ratio there was a large surplus population of males who had no realistic chance of getting married and so were expendable. The bolder of those Dwarves might as well be daring, going out into the world and risking their necks, because that way there was always a chance of making a ton of money or winning glory in battle and thereby attracting a potential wife. It's those adventuresome male Dwarves who are the real candidates to be player-characters. The devs gave you an option so as not to entirely deny female Dwarves, but they knew full well they'd have no business fully acknowledging them and so they didn't.
Now, seen as they do have a playable spot, so should female Dwarves, who when we get down to it, the lore has them no different. Oh, female Dwarves never leave the homeland, so what most male Dwarves, Elves, and Humans do the same thing.
[/QUOTE]
Your explanation is the same as I expected, its because people wanted them... if that is the way it is with Hobbits, than why not with female Dwarves. Sure the lore gives examples of hobbits adventuring, SPECIFIC examples, and it also says they don't like adventures typically.
Your explanation is the same as I expected, its because people wanted them... if that is the way it is with Hobbits, than why not with female Dwarves. Sure the lore gives examples of hobbits adventuring, SPECIFIC examples, and it also says they don't like adventures typically.
Because *enough* people wanted them, and because there were exceptions that allowed for it; it could be made to work without changing the essential nature of hobbits, because in the past they'd not been so insular and settled in their ways. By contrast, female Dwarves had always been scarce, and so it had always been the males who took the risks. So, that's why not.
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Originally Posted by Elheneb
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