So there are female dwarves, but they *look* the same as male dwarves. How, exactly, does that translate in LOTRO to *no* female dwarves? Can't y'all just leave everything about dwarves the same but allow them to display the label "female"?
I believe another reason for not having adventuring female dwarves is becuase they coveted their females. So, it is possible that they rarely, if ever, leave the mines.
You misunderstand. They do exist in LotR, and nobody is disputing this. The argument is whether or not dwarven females are visually distinguishable from dwarven males. The quote that you are referring to supports this:
If you notice in character creation, You are given the option for Elf male and Elf female. Human male, Human female, Hobbit male, Hobbit Female... and Dwarves. It does not specify Dwarven male. It encompasses both options.
I completely Agree with you Ravenot. That whole thing about the dwarf option encompassing both male and female is an exception though. They need a Female/male option. The dwarf option given looks specifically male in the facial build and the body build. Female dwarves need beards but softer facial features and obviously a bosom and bottom. Also, I doubt that the entire dwarf race shares the same set of hair options on the face and the head. The Arguement that you have proven shows that the fact that dwarf females are absent from the game goes against tolkein's lore. The powers that be are probably just putting it off because they don't think a female with a beard will go over well.. And well it saves them the work of creating them and maintaining them.
FYI, there have been a number of threads on different appearing female dwarves since this thread was ended. You may want to search and read them before posting here, it's been thrashed about plenty.
I realize this is a little late to post in reply to the dwarf female issue, but I simply had to point out the flaws in many of the arguments. A female dwarf in the lore here is almost indistinguished from a male, to the point where an outsider cannot tell the difference...what that means is that they apparently do NOT have a higher pitched voice or "a chest", otherwise they would be distinguishable to an outsider. They have masculine features almost in entirety, and it is never mentioned that they do not have entirely masculine features. For all we know, the difference between a female dwarf and a male one could be singular (if you know what I mean) and the dwarves could have some inherent knowledge or sense for telling who is a female and who is a male. It also could be that the only difference noticeable while clothed is that a female dwarf's name in khazad is a female dwarven name rather than a male one, we are never told. For all intents and purposes the only difference between a male dwarf character and a female dwarf character in the game, if they added them, would be the "(male)" or "(female)" attached to the racial name on character creation! can we all say it together? Pointless. Good, now say it again anytime the urge comes over you to think about dwarven females like in WoW.
And now, on to my personal opinion of the dwarves in the game...I find the lack of classes a little on the bland side, but understand it completely...I mean the idea that a dwarf could be a burglar would have omitted the hobbit from the series and estranged thorin himself and made gandalf a fool. But I sure hope that the dwarves have at least one if not both of the new classes with mines of moria this winter. About thier yells, I like that they have a unique one, I just wish that they had a few more. I would like to see each race with three or four of them, but especially the dwarves since thier unique shout actually does get annoying when used too much(to us bystanders anyway). Also, I would love to see dwarven minstrels play a ballad that sounds more dwarven, just a note or two could change that really. Also, the dwarven armors, well...they look good but they could look a little more dwarven. They are the stone hewers, the men under the mountains! They deserve armor that reflects more of thier solid and stoic nature. Mail armor is nice and all, but they dont get any true plate armor, and that is what you always envision a mighty dwarf warrior in. They are the strongest of all the peoples, particularly for thier stature, and they deserve to be given a little more credit for thier ability to wear truly heavy armor...even armor that other races would not be able to effectively wear. They also should have a few more dwarven looking hammers available to them, or at least make hammers look more dwarven in thier hands. Axes too, maybe, but hammers in particular are a bit too long as it is for them to look right in the hands of a dwarf. They dwarves would be using more of a broad headed short handled hammer, either two or one handed...they would still be shortened from what they are now...and any self respecting dwarf wouldnt use one of the tack hammers, as I call them, that the humans love so much(the one handed hammers with a head about as big around as a finger).
I also would like to say that I look forward to a few new beards when we can get them, and one that tucks into the belt would make me throw out two more of my characters and make a few more dwarves instead. the hair styles are alright, maybe another more warrior looking style or two since most of them look more domestic for them, but pretty well done overall.
And lastly, I would like to just say that I enjoy playing a dwarf, especially with the grandeur of thier zones and ruins, the animations and appearances of the dwarves, and how unique the are. It is a very nice experience, and I applaud the dedication it took to keep them true to the lore.
My opinion on the Female dwarf thing is that it doesn't matter... AT ALL. And I wish people would stop bringing it up. Having female Dwarves skipping around Middle Earth probably breaks more lore barriers than a bunch of hobbits conquering Angmar.
On to my idea for Dwarves. I think that Dwarves should receive a racial that acts like the Champion sprint did before it was updated. So something like +25% or +35% runspeed. They are btw natural sprinters. So give them a fast run boost for say 10-15 seconds.
Natural Sprint
"Dwarves are Natural Sprinters"
+35% Run speed
Duration 10seconds
Cooldown: 3m
Cost: 40 power
Natural Sprint must be traited
Throughout the Tolkien books, The hobbit, the trilogy, the silmarillion, and some of Tolkien's other books i havent read yet, Dwarves are an extreemly vengeful race. They always seem to want to justify the honor of their fallen comrads, even when the stakes are high and the battle dire. When it came to lossing Moria and trying to retake it, or remembering the gold under smaug, Dwarves never forgot things easily.
I suggest an ally defeat response racial skill.
Vengeance
Dwarves don't forgive and forget. Upon the defeat of an Ally you let out a cry to demoralize your enemy.
Fears target for 4 seconds Upon expiration:
Target has +30% attack duration
You gain +15% Damage Increase against
affected target.
Duration: 10 Seconds
Cooldown: 7m
Cost: 100 moral
60 power
Vengeance Must be traited
The first one is defiantly a more probable skill, as Vengeance is more of a class skill type. But I like the concept. But it says in more than one place in Tolkien's books that Dwarves are good sprinters.
I love both of your ideas, Hawk9. Dwarves often drive hard into battle, and the sprint skill would fit that idea perfectly.
I like the vengeance skill too. It would sort of be a temporary berzerker state. They could really make a great animation out of it too. As I play my Dwarf Champion, I often go into my own made-up berzerker mode when a fellow dies, using sound the attack and raging blade plus endurance of the dwarf.
I love both of your ideas, Hawk9. Dwarves often drive hard into battle, and the sprint skill would fit that idea perfectly.
I like the vengeance skill too. It would sort of be a temporary berzerker state. They could really make a great animation out of it too. As I play my Dwarf Champion, I often go into my own made-up berzerker mode when a fellow dies, using sound the attack and raging blade plus endurance of the dwarf.
I think the "sprint" skill is based more on the films than the books. I would suggest that the game stick to the books since they have no liscense for the movies.
My only suggestion is a Dwarf only class. (I would also like to see a Elf only class, but that's for another discussion)
I know the game is supposed to be skewed towards the race of MEN, but it would be nice to have a Dwarf only class, ohhh... say something like.... the Runekeeper
I would argue the same for the Elves and the Wardens.
It would make them a bit more desirable since generally there is no real benefit to picking one race over another. Plus the fact that men seem to have the most popular trait.
This would go a long way towards making the Dwarves more 'unique'.
Note: To clarify, I don't think hobbits need their own class, I don't see them as creative or motivated enough to make their own specialized class, unless 'couch potato' and 'homebody' become classes...
One's real life is so often the life that one does not lead.-Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Irish poet and dramatist.
My only suggestion is a Dwarf only class. (I would also like to see a Elf only class, but that's for another discussion)
I know the game is supposed to be skewed towards the race of MEN, but it would be nice to have a Dwarf only class, ohhh... say something like.... the Runekeeper
I would argue the same for the Elves and the Wardens.
It would make them a bit more desirable since generally there is no real benefit to picking one race over another. Plus the fact that men seem to have the most popular trait.
This would go a long way towards making the Dwarves more 'unique'.
Note: To clarify, I don't think hobbits need their own class, I don't see them as creative or motivated enough to make their own specialized class, unless 'couch potato' and 'homebody' become classes...
I'd love to see a "Shirrif" class for hobbits, but only because I think it's silly to see hobbit Guardians as the only class to use two-handed clubs. I guess if they add in "mounted combat" with the Rohan expansion, the Hobbit Shirrif might be a good way to add a more "Battle of Greenfields" type of reference for Hobbit players as the game moves away from the Shire.
I would like to see a beardless dwarf model, I know that dwarves prize there beards and to shave off a beard is a disgrace, but this is a game and I do like the idea of playing a beardless dwarf.
Also, I would like to play a bearded hobbit. Some hobbits could grow whispy beards but that is not reflected in our current character models.
I wanna see a dwarf-only class that better describes Gimli and other NPCs. Right now he's a guardian but in the books he's described with a massive 2h axe with throwing axes. He's also called a slayer but I forget in which novel.
There should be a class that excels with 2h AoE damage and CC. They should alse have acsess to a special range weapon e.g Crossbows or a new throwing weapon type. Heavy armor for em would be good to. But they should have bad ranged so they arnt overpowered. Just my opinion
I wish to be able to create a young male dwarf without a beard. They said all dwarves must have big beard to hide their boozes. But not everyone is an alcholic. I am not an alcholic so I won't really need a beard on my dwarf.
A female dwarf in the lore here is almost indistinguished from a male, to the point where an outsider cannot tell the difference...what that means is that they apparently do NOT have a higher pitched voice or "a chest", otherwise they would be distinguishable to an outsider. They have masculine features almost in entirety, and it is never mentioned that they do not have entirely masculine features.
That's what you think that means. I didn't see anywhere in the books where someone flat out said "female dwarves look identical to males dwarves". The only real hint to the appearance of a female dwarf is that they had beards. I wish people would stop making stuff up and saying they know the "Lore".
I scrolled through all of the posts because I wished to make pretty much the same comment.
From the Warden description is talks about protecting the land etc.... so you may think that would cut out the dwarves but the Lost Hill dwarves description makes it sound like they were more outdoorsy than the rest so that would put them back in.
Plus what about those dwarf guards in T. Hall? (especially the 2 outside the main doors) Looks like spears to me!
While I would rather have a Dwarf toon, not being able to play a warden (or just a spearman / javelin thrower), drove me over to a Man toon.
I have always been fascinated with dwarfs in fantasy world, but they always fall short of expectations. here are some examples:
1. dwarfs are renown for being able to mine/blacksmith. suggested action: they should be able to repair their own armor (at a forge of course) for no cost.
2. They are also known to be very resistant to poisons and disease. Suggested Action:They gain some sort of in game resistance to those.
1) The to-hit penalty on axes -- I miss enough with my guardian that it makes axes a non-choice for a weapon -- BUT as a dwarf I want to wield an axe and it will become even worse when the +damage to axe trait becomes an option. Personally I think dwarves should NOT get that penalty to hit with an axe, or at the very least not getting a penalty with an axe should come with the +damage racial trait.
2) There arent enough racial traits that one would really want. The +35 vitality buff is almost weak enough that it could be up 24/7 as opposed to a few seconds every hour vs one that buffs power/hope/hp. Hunker Down(reduction in damage) vs say the 75% to parry anything or 3000 point heal doesnt sound as strong. Our defense is 2%(and block so it only helps if you have a shield) vs the 3% for human or stealth for the other races. Our weapon has a minus to hit as stated above. And our teleport is to the least useful location. Really I have a hard time choosing 5 traits I want for my racial slots at the end game.
----
At any rate I like being a dwarf guardian but I feel that the racial traits could use a little tweaking... Really simply getting rid of the axe penalty for dwarves and say making the vitality buff into a stoicism buff that would say improve everyones resistance to damage for a short time and things would be a lot more balanced.
If the cooldown of endurance of stone was lowered to 10min, then it would come somewhat close to the massively nice 3000+ morale man-heal. It would be also be nice if a +75% acid defence was included as well....
Dwarves...truest of heart...strength of will...greatest valor...steady as a rock...strong as a mountain...best fighters in middle-earth.
Did I mention I really like dwarves? My two cents...
Not quite true, JRRs dwarves were noted as cowardly and greedy to a fault.
"For those who don't build, must burn"
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Awesome drips off me like Gatorade-colored UBER
I want only one thing changed (or fixed). Endurance of the Stone. Can we PLEASE get it back to a useful skill?
As of right now it gives +75% to common fire and shadow. When the game came out that was really all that could damage you.
Now, there is Acid, lightning, and Cold. ALL new bosses it seems do only acid damage, thus negating the best dwarf racial (and in my opinion, best racial in the game). It is NOT an OP skill, it never was. It was very, very, situation for 15 seconds with a one hour CD. So, please, can we get the skill back on par with what it was when SoA was around?
Leader of R.A.I.D. (Rememberme's Awesome Instructional Directions).
If you notice in character creation, You are given the option for Elf male and Elf female. Human male, Human female, Hobbit male, Hobbit Female... and Dwarves. It does not specify Dwarven male. It encompasses both options.
I don't even care about female dwarf models, I'd happily use the current dwarf models IF we were able to use gender-appropriate titles. Right now all gender-specific titles automatically use the male form for dwarves.
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Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway!
It is in the Appendices of RotK that few dwarves even marry do to their immersion in their craft. It also says that the male dwarves greatly outnumbered the females. This all leads to their reluctance to enter a full war after Azanulbizar because their population grows extremely slowly.
I also would support a racial advantage to crafting... considering the fact that their race was created by the patron Vala of crafting, Aule, against the will of Eru.
I think we should see female dwaves, its easy to do since all you need to do is add female parts to the dwarf model, add a "softer" more female face, but keep the beard, thus sticking to the Lore of LotR. It never said there wern't females, and it never realy said they couldn't be adventurers, so just add those minor changes and everyone who wants to play a female dwarf will be happy, as well as those who wish to respect the lore of Tolken, everyone wins!
(emphasis mine)
Thing is, that doesn't stick to the lore. The lore is female dwarves are rare - less than 1/3 of the population. Also, to any but another dwarf, they are indistingishable from male dwarves. They aren't softer, of prettier or more busty. They look like the male dwarves do - therefore LOTRO does not introduce a separate model.
Originally Posted by eriol123
I also would support a racial advantage to crafting... considering the fact that their race was created by the patron Vala of crafting, Aule, against the will of Eru.
Not exactly. Eru approved the work, but made Aule keep the dwarves in stasis until the elves had come forth. The Ainur did not comprehend every theme of the music, but Eru presumably did - including Aule's need to create (itself a drawing closer to God, hence intrinsically a good thing.)
Other races had great craftsmen, with the possible exception of hobbits. Numenor at its height created Orthanc ans Isengard. During the time of two kingdoms, the Argonath wre created, not to mention Minas Tirith. Blades of Westernesse were nearly as fine of those of Gondolin. And Elvish weapons were the equal or better than Dwarvish.
Last edited by Aestivan; May 12 2011 at 07:17 AM.
“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.” – The Two Towers
Thing is, that doesn't stick to the lore. The lore is female dwarves are rare - less than 1/3 of the population. Also, to any but another dwarf, they are indistingishable from male dwarves. They aren't softer, of prettier or more busty. They look like the male dwarves do - therefore LOTRO does not introduce a separate model.
Ah this dead horse. Since someone decided to necro it back to half-life, allow me...
/Kick!
Here is the problem: Tolkien gives VERY few comments about female dwarves, and over the last handful of decades these have taken a life of their own.
While I agree that male/female dwarves should not be as different as on WoW or Forgotten World or other "cutesy" games, SLIGHT differences could be applied without breaking lore.
Giving female dwarves a smaller brow or increasing the "bust" size by a small factor would not break the lore, but would explain why other races would have a hard time telling them apart.
Its like how some dogs (I think doberman dogs but I will double check) the males and females look a LOT like but are NOT identical.
No-one is talking about female dwarved with dd breasts and tapered waistlines.
I think we need to stop falling into the trap of having a VERY VAGUE description and then treating it as if it was a indepth conversation by Tolkien on how dwarf women should look.
I will have to put a caviout in here that dwarves are my favorite race so I am a bit of a homer. The dwarves were great miners and craftsman.
Why not see a bonus for specific races and thier crafts. Whether it is the speed at which they complete the tasks or a better chance to crit.
My dwarf guard (what other class would you choose) is an explorer despite they dont like to explore but I would like to see him have the ability to mine faster and perhaps make ingots faster withouth having to use the advanced kits to do so...
You mean there are more races other than Dwarfs? Why? And about women Dwarfs, if my wife had a beard, I wouldn't allow her out of the house either...no wonder we are so eager to go to work in the mines.
Wait a minute. Can somebody please explain to me why the "lore" prevents females??? You all continually reference a quote in which a dwarf went out of his way to specify that there ARE females and you see this as a reason to forbid their existence in the game? That doesn't make sense to me. It seems you are showing evidence that is contradictory to your point...the lore specifically states, quite directly, that they DO exist.
Why does the implication that it is difficult for an outsider to notice the cosmetic differences between them mean they should not exist in this game?
I agree. To which I say:
unlock the FEMALE option
change HE to SHE in all DWARF emotes concerning said shes. KEEP the display to race of men, elves and hobbits as HE.
I love dwarves, they are by far my favourite fantasy race.
Anyway this is what I could find about female dwarves in appendix A, in the red book...
"'Dis' was the daughter of Thrain II. She is the only dwarf-woman named in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among men that there are no dwarf-women and that the dwarves 'grow out of stone'."
They should add to the model and allow for Dwarf females to be made. I think it should be the exact same as the male model. The only difference would be when you walk by someone or something in game the computer will say SHE instead of he and HER instead of him. When my Dwarf hunter (who RP's as female) ports someone it says "Would you liek to join HIM?" that needs to be changed.
One of the best things I love about playing a dwarf is the terrific voice acting. I changed from playing a Rune-keeper to a Champion in part because I find the dwarf's battle cries and other sounds inspiring. "Khazad ai menu!" Ah! To the voice actor, whomever you are - you are terrific!
Since this last patch, Turbine has added to the sounds the goblins make in battle (they now shriek similarly to chimpanzees and such). It is my hope that they leave the dwarf's voice acting as is.
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Well the female dwarf thing is pretty simple. You can be a female dwarf now but you have to sound and look like a male dwarf. I doubt though that male dwarves would risk bringing female dwarves with them on the adventures we go through in LOTRO.
From "The Later Quenta Silmarillion" in HOME XI:
For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls. It is said, also, that their womenkind are few, and that save their kings and chieftains few Dwarves ever wed; wherefore their race multiplied slowly and now is dwindling.
In Appendix A of RotK it says:
"It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart."
Although I agree with the fact that a stocky, short, female version of the dwarf would be cute... it goes against J.R.R. Tolkien's lore. In Middle Earth, the dwarf women are hard to tell apart from the dwarf men (i.e. - They have beards and such). In fact, in the Lord of the Rings movies, they quote Gimli saying that they sometimes have a problem telling each other apart.
PLEASE for the love of Iluvatar don't take anything from the movies as canon.
Now, then. It is probable that Dwarf men can tell the females of their own race when they see them. Though, possibly, not.
(There was a big uproar during the second Gulf war over a photograph of an Iraqi woman being searched by a US soldier. The soldier was herself a woman. The Iraqis didn't realize that: they saw "soldier = man.")
More to the point, Dwarf women are few in number. Some marry; some don't marry because they couldn't get the man they wanted; others, because they just don't want to. ("What? Me, marry and spend my time raising kids for the next several hundred years? I've got several hundred years of practice ahead of me before I can even call myself a journeyman!") It's a good thing Dwarves are tough and long-lived and believe in reincarnation.
So Dwarf-women generally stay at home in their caves or other settlements; they're rare and valuable. A Dwarf-woman who for some reason leaves her home -- either because war or catastrophe has driven her out of it, or because she feels like adventuring -- is going to take advantage of the fact that people other than Dwarves can't tell whether she's male or female. And, probably, people other than Dwarves aren't going to care.
If you meet a Dwarf on the road or in town, assume he is male. If she's not male, it's none of your darned business.
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Re: Races: Dwarf
Originally Posted by Ravenot
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Re: Races: Dwarf
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