Although I agree with the fact that a stocky, short, female version of the dwarf would be cute... it goes against J.R.R. Tolkien's lore. In Middle Earth, the dwarf women are hard to tell apart from the dwarf men (i.e. - They have beards and such). In fact, in the Lord of the Rings movies, they quote Gimli saying that they sometimes have a problem telling each other apart.
So, as much as we'd like to see this as an option on the character selection screen, it is doubtful the developers will change this rule, especially since it is against the lore of the world... and rightly so.
I'm glad the developers have such a respect for the original work...
Although I agree with the fact that a stocky, short, female version of the dwarf would be cute... it goes against J.R.R. Tolkien's lore. In Middle Earth, the dwarf women are hard to tell apart from the dwarf men (i.e. - They have beards and such). In fact, in the Lord of the Rings movies, they quote Gimli saying that they sometimes have a problem telling each other apart.
PJ's films were an addaption and there were changes because of that, but his films never had Gimli say that Dwarves ever had problems telling the difference, just that everyone except Dwarves did!
I can't wait to walk around in Thorin's Halls. Only problem with being a dwarf, is the undeniable urge to craft!! Especially chillin in Thorin's Halls with all the granduer and magnificence of it all. Makes you want to take part and craft.
"Work is the curse of the Drinking Class" ~Oscar Wilde
Vulfgar ~ dwarf guardian
Octonos ~ captain
lev 15 and bored
What I love most about Dwarves in LotRO is their battlecries; it is fun just having one around. In Beta, I eventually created a Dwarf character just so I could hear that manic laugh as he carved up his enemies.
Other races seem mute by comparison, with the possible exception of Hobbits, whose shouts seemed a bit strange to me....
Well, since none of us are dwarves in real life, how do we know if we're creating a dwarf man or woman? That "man" you think you are creating could very well be a woman
I managed to make a distinctly feminine looking dwarf, took some effort. To the average person from any real distance it looked like a typical male, but up close she had silver clasps, a shorter beard, softer facial features, and the slightest hint of maybe having a chest under all that armor haha. Still, takes some serious getting used to.
What I love most about Dwarves in LotRO is their battlecries; it is fun just having one around. In Beta, I eventually created a Dwarf character just so I could hear that manic laugh as he carved up his enemies.
Other races seem mute by comparison, with the possible exception of Hobbits, whose shouts seemed a bit strange to me....
Very MALE battlecries.. the only people who couldnt tell it was a male would have to be DEAF! I did try to make a more female one but, apart from having a girly name .. just seemed very male ..
You know, even Female Dwarfs would have ... um ... their chest would be different. That aside, they DO look mostly the same. Also, if you count in a little AD&D lore, a beardless female dwarf is a "lady of the night".
Don't ban me Patience, just trying to throw in a little more info.
I was already biased and leaning towards a Dwarf before I got into early beta because they have always had a warm place in my heart, but I had initially tried to keep an open mind about it. I started with an elf minstrel and loved it. Then a Hobbit Burgler (I know, too cliche) and a hunter, then a human Lore master and captain before finally rolling a dwarf champion and Guardian.
Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed the other races and classes, but after playing a dwarf champion for 5 minutes, I was hooked. The champion could have turned out to be the weakest class in the game and I'd still have been a Dwarf Champion for the shear joy it is to play. No other race sucks you in the way the dwarves do with their warcries. As melee especially. It was either guardian or champion for me and since my friend is a masterful tank and I knew he'd be playing guardian, champion was the only choice.
As I say, I really enjoyed all the other classes and races. But none of them permanently and instantly chissel a smile on my face the way a dwarf melee does. I still giggle every time he says "haHAAA!!!" It's even more fun now that my friend and I fight alongside each other, dwarf champion alongside dwarf guardian. Dueling warcries!
Who on earth thought that meek, nasally, whiney Droopy Dog voice was appropriate for Glorfindel?
I can understand restricting the Captain choice to the pitiful humans, but where in the lore are there not dwarven thiefs, what about the whole race of petty dwarves??? And although I cant find a dwarf in tolkein specifically addressing magic, what about all the devices that are magically made by dwarfs???
So my question simply is why no burglar, why no loremaster?
Thanks for listening
Bosco, the wandering hunter in the world of Windfola
I think dwarven lore masters is a bad idea, however I *do* thing that dwarves should have racial traits that let them excel in weapons and armor crafting (not sure if they do already), or maybe have special recipies with extra qualities that are only available for dwarves (though the best 'crafter' in this lore is an elf, so I supposed the same thing should be available to the elves).
I can understand restricting the Captain choice to the pitiful humans, but where in the lore are there not dwarven thiefs, what about the whole race of petty dwarves??? And although I cant find a dwarf in tolkein specifically addressing magic, what about all the devices that are magically made by dwarfs???
So my question simply is why no burglar, why no loremaster?
The Petty Dwarves died out in the First Age. Mim (from the the story of Turin Turambar) was supposedly the last one. If Dwarves could be burglars, do you think that Thorin would have recruited a hobbit?
Magic in Middle earth is not like magic in other worlds. You don't have to be a "wizard" or "magic-user" to make a magical item. Tolkien often uses the terms "craft" or "skill" to describe things we would see as magical. Dwarves, being great craftsmen, and having access to metals such as Mithril, would be able to create "Magical" items without being a Loremaster.
I think we should see female dwaves, its easy to do since all you need to do is add female parts to the dwarf model, add a "softer" more female face, but keep the beard, thus sticking to the Lore of LotR. It never said there wern't females, and it never realy said they couldn't be adventurers, so just add those minor changes and everyone who wants to play a female dwarf will be happy, as well as those who wish to respect the lore of Tolken, everyone wins!
There's nothing I love more than a dwarf cutting things up in combat. Some great battlecries and animations. Dwarf champions are exceptionally cool. I like the attitudes of shop keepers and all around art for the dwarves and area. Bravo!
Though i do agree that a female dwarf would be a little bit more fun. i would have to go against it becuase it would tear apart from the story that was set. and Gimli did say that it is near impossible to see a male dwarf and female dwarf differently. They even say we dwarfs just sprout out of the ground!!.
before i even started playing i was going to be a dwarf and i am for that matter and also being a rather effecient tank i went with guardian . so lets just keep dwarfs at male. o and a few more beard models would be nice. .
I really have enjoyed playing my dwarf guardian. Unlike elves, and their perpetual whining, dwarves are gruff, businesslike, and use any excuse to get somebody else to do the work so they can go drinking. Perfect. The battlecries are great too.
Thorin's Hall, though, is a bit of a mess to try and find stuf, particularly the armourers. I finally got the landmark though...just head behind my guardian trainer. I'm very impressed by the hall, though. OK, so this is really the first modern game I'm playing with my new NX8800GTX and all the graphics, shadows, etc. on full, but the reflection off the polished floors is amazing! Great work.
The quests are pretty good for dwarves too. Lotsa killiing stuf and no flower-picking. Haven't gotten to a quest that I REALLY don't like yet either (Spider Mama for humans, Dol Ringwest and Hunter's Lodge for Elves, e.g.). I'm looking forward to getting into the armourcrafting, but I'm not quite able to wear heavy armour yet. As with all the areas, though, there seems to be a paucity of copper. You'd think with all those hills and mountains, there'd be a bit better spawn of minerals. But I guess that's a general resource spawn rate concern that can be tweaked before launch. I hope so. I like the crafting in LotRO and just wish that resources were a tad more prevalent.
Good job with the Dwarves, I think. Plenty of atmosphere and no Escheresque architecture.
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
1) The to-hit penalty on axes -- I miss enough with my guardian that it makes axes a non-choice for a weapon -- BUT as a dwarf I want to wield an axe and it will become even worse when the +damage to axe trait becomes an option. Personally I think dwarves should NOT get that penalty to hit with an axe, or at the very least not getting a penalty with an axe should come with the +damage racial trait.
2) There arent enough racial traits that one would really want. The +35 vitality buff is almost weak enough that it could be up 24/7 as opposed to a few seconds every hour vs one that buffs power/hope/hp. Hunker Down(reduction in damage) vs say the 75% to parry anything or 3000 point heal doesnt sound as strong. Our defense is 2%(and block so it only helps if you have a shield) vs the 3% for human or stealth for the other races. Our weapon has a minus to hit as stated above. And our teleport is to the least useful location. Really I have a hard time choosing 5 traits I want for my racial slots at the end game.
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At any rate I like being a dwarf guardian but I feel that the racial traits could use a little tweaking... Really simply getting rid of the axe penalty for dwarves and say making the vitality buff into a stoicism buff that would say improve everyones resistance to damage for a short time and things would be a lot more balanced.
You know, even Female Dwarfs would have ... um ... their chest would be different.
If you are refering to mammary glands to produce milk for offspring... Yes female Dwarves would have those and they would probably be located on their upper torso. However, with the vast majority of mammals these aren't surrounded by fat deposits and other tissue to promeniently display them (off hand the only exceptions I can think of are humans and a few domesticated animals, like dairy cows). Even for other primates, mammary glands are usually low-profile organs, unless they are lactating (producing milk). There is no reason why it couldn't be the same case for Tolkien's Dwarves.*shrug*
Originally Posted by Lorekeeper
That aside, they DO look mostly the same. Also, if you count in a little AD&D lore, a beardless female dwarf is a "lady of the night".
Since this isn't a game based on AD&D (or any of the other D&D products), I don't see how this is relevant at all.
Wait a minute. Can somebody please explain to me why the "lore" prevents females??? You all continually reference a quote in which a dwarf went out of his way to specify that there ARE females and you see this as a reason to forbid their existence in the game? That doesn't make sense to me. It seems you are showing evidence that is contradictory to your point...the lore specifically states, quite directly, that they DO exist.
Why does the implication that it is difficult for an outsider to notice the cosmetic differences between them mean they should not exist in this game?
Correction: The dwarves didnt make the secret doors. Elves did. Elves enchanted the doors many years ago (like the gates of moria) when the dwarven cities were made. You learn this from LOTR Third Age and i think it says in LOTR BFME 1 too.
Correction: The only magical devise the dwarves made were the secret doors and even THEY werent made by the dwarves. Elves made them. Elves enchanted the doors the dwarves made. You learn this from LOTR the third age of LOTR BFME 1 too.
Wait a minute. Can somebody please explain to me why the "lore" prevents females??? You all continually reference a quote in which a dwarf went out of his way to specify that there ARE females and you see this as a reason to forbid their existence in the game? That doesn't make sense to me. It seems you are showing evidence that is contradictory to your point...the lore specifically states, quite directly, that they DO exist.
Why does the implication that it is difficult for an outsider to notice the cosmetic differences between them mean they should not exist in this game?
You misunderstand. They do exist in LotR, and nobody is disputing this. The argument is whether or not dwarven females are visually distinguishable from dwarven males. The quote that you are referring to supports this:
Gimli: It's true you don't see many dwarf women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for dwarf men.
Aragorn: [whispering] It's the beards.
Gimli: And this in turn has given rise to the belief that there are no dwarf women, and that dwarves just spring out of holes in the ground!
[Eowyn laughs]
Gimli: Which is, of course, ridiculous.
If you notice in character creation, You are given the option for Elf male and Elf female. Human male, Human female, Hobbit male, Hobbit Female... and Dwarves. It does not specify Dwarven male. It encompasses both options.
If you notice in character creation, You are given the option for Elf male and Elf female. Human male, Human female, Hobbit male, Hobbit Female... and Dwarves. It does not specify Dwarven male. It encompasses both options.
And that is perhaps the best compromise on the issue available to the Devs, which is probably why they settled on that option!
Yes. Good compromise. We're all agreed. Scurrying right along then . . . .
I love the dwarves. I love my noVus, Forlan, Torlan and Noran.
I do have one complaint however. To fix it, yikes, might involve a lot.
It has to do with the Dwarven character model. Besides this one point? I think they look great. But the legs? The legs specifically? I look like a large fat guy, that's been stuck on two short stubs. The proportions seem all wrong. I feel the same way about the Hobbits, the only difference is, I only have one of those. I much prefer Alan Lee's depiction of Tolkiens dwarves. The leg to torso proportion is the same as humans and elves, but they are simply smaller and stockier than humans and elves; while larger than hobbits.
If you guys could fix that? Phew. That'd mean a ton. I also think it would fix the horrible walking animation that we dwarves are stuck with.
I see your point then. I had not noticed it did not specify male or female on the page. If this were actually their intention, that's fine with me (and I honestly don't really care one way or the other), but perhaps an easy fix to make things more comfortable for those missing the female tag would be simply to let you pick whether you were male or female anyway. Even if the models and sounds are the same, why not have the option?
At the very least, they could make the selection screen say "Dwarves (Male/Female)" or some such.
Originally Posted by Ravenot
You misunderstand. They do exist in LotR, and nobody is disputing this. The argument is whether or not dwarven females are visually distinguishable from dwarven males. The quote that you are referring to supports this:
If you notice in character creation, You are given the option for Elf male and Elf female. Human male, Human female, Hobbit male, Hobbit Female... and Dwarves. It does not specify Dwarven male. It encompasses both options.
I think dwarven lore masters is a bad idea, however I *do* thing that dwarves should have racial traits that let them excel in weapons and armor crafting (not sure if they do already), or maybe have special recipies with extra qualities that are only available for dwarves (though the best 'crafter' in this lore is an elf, so I supposed the same thing should be available to the elves).
-shnar
Well said! I love the idea of racial requirements for certain crafting recipes. However, perhaps something like an additional % to a critical success?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good Loremaster at your side, kid." The Team, Elendilmir: the [Jeweled Bell] goes *Jingle, Jangle*
Ravenot: You misunderstand. They do exist in LotR, and nobody is disputing this. The argument is whether or not dwarven females are visually distinguishable from dwarven males. The quote that you are referring to supports this:
I have a sneaking suspicion that Gimli and Aragorn was pulling Eowyn's leg...
Bearded woman.. Pah!
If so, why does Gimli's character seem to think that Eowyn, Arwyn, and Galadriel are attractive? Wouldn't their smooth, beardless faces make them seem alien? Or is Gimli some kind of Dwarven Prevert?
I know we are shorter, but we have the smallest home in Middle Earth right now.
Elves have got Rivendell, which is fairly big and a haven for upper level players. Humans have Bree, which is more or less the center of the game and huge to the point that people get lag before they even are in site of it. Hobbits have the Shire, one if not the biggest zones ingame, and also have some claim to Bree (edit: said Rivendell first, my bad).
Dwarves? We have a sliver of the top half of a map of mostly poorly developed landscape. Honestly, Thorin's Halls are anything but impressive. They don't measure up to WoW's Ironforge in terms of size and complexity, so they lose the e-peen contest. It's cool for about five minutes when you realzie it isn't all that big and is mostly empty space. The area is mostly useless once you have left the region. The Shire has farmland, Rivendell is a good base for high levels, and Bree is a vital travel hub. Thorin's Halls have some nice statues, but what it needs is some good dwarf choir music, something to make it absolutely epic. At the throne, you have a nice long walk up, and then all you get is Dwalin sort of standing there in some regular looking clothes. Gloin in the beginning instance looks better than Dwalin does, and Gloin is just dressed for traveling! That's not even his best suit!
The mountains in our zone don't feel like mountains. You can get some pretty impressive views, but never the highest, and because it is so clsed, in the end it just feels like an elevated trail. You don't get any true sense of range or expanse. As far as I know, the Dwarven empire in the blue mountains is just a tiny little sliver between two impassible mountain walls, and has all of fifty dwarves in it total.
Overall, the feel just isn't dwarvish or epic, and the place is far behind the other races. Later, Elves and men and Dwarves will be receiving massive additions (Lorien, Mirkwood, Gondor, Rohan), and dwarves will get the Iron Hills. Please, do a much better job next time for the dwarves. Also, if at all possible, pump up the current area before launch.
Still lamenting the axe penalty -- now that I am 36th I could use an axe if I wanted to but I cant eat the extra missing factor. The axe trait needs to at the very least remove the penalty to hit with axes...
The other issue is hunker down. Compared with the 3000 hit point heal, it just doesnt last long enough. Please consider raising the time for this and the elf parry ability to 20 seconds from the current 10. Then it would be a lot more useful.
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On another front, I would like to be able to update my appearance... Lengthen my beard maybe to suit my new stature as a high level dwarf, maybe add a scar or two.
The strength to fight what one can change.
The fortitude to accept what is a dead horse.
And the wisdom to know the difference.
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Re: Races: Dwarf
Originally Posted by Eleman
Although I agree with the fact that a stocky, short, female version of the dwarf would be cute... it goes against J.R.R. Tolkien's lore. In Middle Earth, the dwarf women are hard to tell apart from the dwarf men (i.e. - They have beards and such). In fact, in the Lord of the Rings movies, they quote Gimli saying that they sometimes have a problem telling each other apart.
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