I consider myself one of the foremost experts on Overpower in Landroval, if not LOTRO at large. When tanking in Overpower (which you can do for 80% of the content at level 65), I regularly hold single-target aggro against every class without using a single skill that has bonus threat--in other words, I tank by out-damaging the rest of my fellowship. Now, am I saying that I out-damage every conceivable player of every other class? No. Just that in my experience, I very rarely lose aggro when in Overpower, even though I'm not using anything but damage skills (nor do I have any bonus threat from belts or anything).
The only classes that I've ever seen come close to me in damage output are the most well-geared and well-played champions and hunters, and even then it usually only happens on very long fights. For shorter fights or up-front damage, I've not met anyone who can compete with me in Overpower in terms of damage-per-second. Certainly, Hunters and Champions are far more power-efficient and have the potential to do more damage over a long fight though.
More than traits or even gear, the most important thing in Overpower is your skill sequence. Your goal is to swing your 2-hander as many times as possible, as quickly as possible, in the shortest window of time. Most classes are restricted in how many swings they can get in a period of time, but Guardians have many tools to basically exploit the combat clock. I'll talk about those tools below, and how they combine to make us perhaps the most powerful burst-damage class in the game (for a single target at least).
A brief explanation of Fast skills
Guardians are lucky in that we have many 'Fast' skills (this is not a simple adjective--it is a keyword on the skills that indicates a mechanical difference in how the skill works as compared with normal skills). Fast skills execute immediately after the prior skill is done animating. They ignore what is called the "action/attack duration" which is a delay that happens after you use a skill before you can use another skill.
The Fast skills we use in Overpower are Stagger, Retaliation, Thrust, and Overwhelm. There are other Fast skills Guardians have, but they generally require a shield and are for tanking, not DPS. If you want to learn what's so great about these skills, just go do a skirmish and fight a Shepherd of Filth. Let him hit you with all of his worms, which will massively debuff your "attack duration" speed. You'll now notice that all of your normal skills, like Guardian's Ward, Salt the Wound, Vexing Blow, Sweeping Cuts, and even Sting, are very slow to fire, one after the other. However, Fast skills like Retaliation, Stagger, and Overwhelm effectively ignore the debuff completely and fire just like normal--that is, immediately one after the other.
Now, I'm not saying that all of our non-Fast skills are useless. I'm just saying you have to choose your skills, and the order you use them, carefully. If you're going for DPS (damage per second, not damage per power!), you really want to focus on getting as many swings as possible in the shortest possible window of time.
Sting
Sting is not a Fast skill, per the keyword, but it is still awesome. Its animation and action duration are super quick, and when traited with Stinging Blow, it does 10% more damage and has a very short cooldown. You can also get a belt legacy that boosts its damage another 11.1%. You basically want to be using Sting as much as possible, especially now that its use does not significantly affect your auto-attack cycle.
Guardian's Ward
Guardian's Ward, if traited and legacied, can give you something like +1700 parry rating. And in Overpower, parries translate to more DPS, as they open up your parry chain (made up of Fast skills). If legacied to have increased duration, you can use it at the start of a battle and not need to use it again until your full skill sequence is complete.
Force Opening
Force Opening gets you a parry response if you're not getting lucky with parries (or if you don't have aggro), so it is vitally important in opening up your parry chain, which is the true source of our DPS awesomeness.
Take to Heart
You'll need to use this skill often in order to keep yourself powered. Whenever possible, use it on foes who are stunned so that they have no chance to block, parry, or evade it (which can be very frustrating).
Overwhelm
I called out Overwhelm already amongst the Fast skills, but it's so awesome it deserves special mention. Before Siege of Mirkwood it really wasn't anything special. But now, it's Fast, AND you can increase its crit rating with a (IMHO) must-have weapon legacy.
A word on Auto-Attacks and animation times
The recent changes to the combat system altered the way auto-attacks work. Auto-attacks no longer need to complete their animation in order to deliver their payload of damage. All they need to do is start. They can then be interrupted by any skill and will immediately do their damage. An auto-attack will attempt to start every 1.9 seconds for a 1-hander and 2.6 seconds for a 2-hander (or is it 2.4?). It cannot start while you are animating a skill, but as soon as that animating skill is done, it will start (in this way it functions like a Fast skill). Auto-attacks will "slip in between the cracks", so don't worry about starving yourself out of auto-attacks by queueing skills up one after the other.
The only way you can significantly reduce your auto-attack DPS is by using many skills with long animations. For Guardians, the only skill that has a very long animation is Sweeping Cuts. It may seem like you are getting a bargain with Sweeping Cuts, since it swings twice--but in reality you could have used another skill and an auto-attack in the same time, for a lot less power. Sweeping Cuts also has a significant post-animation delay before you can use another standard, non-Fast skill. In short, Sweeping Cuts is really meant to be used in multi-target scenarios, not against single targets.
Additionally, To the King and Brutal Assault have longer-than-ideal animations, but they are still worth using due to their high bonus damage, and anyway they will not delay your auto-attacks significantly.
The Skill Sequence
Many guards will argue over the ideal skill sequence, but here is the one with which I have had the most success (note, for single target only!):
Guardian's Ward (For more parries. Ideally you want your duration at least 15 seconds, since it will be at least that long until you have the dead-time to reapply it)
Force Opening (unless you immediately get a natural parry)
Sting
Retaliation
Stagger
Overwhelm (3-6 should be queued up one after the other, giving you four main hand attacks in about a 1.5 seconds--much faster than your actual weapon speed)
Sting
To the King
(from this point on, if you get a parry, goto #3 or #4 and resume from there)
Sting
Stagger
Brutal Assault
Goto #1 and resume from there (note that this sequence, with no natural parries, takes about 15 seconds. However, for me most generic 65 normal foes will be dead after step 8).
This sequence requires the trait Blocking Force if I want to be able to reuse Force Opening on a second full lap.
Ideally, if you are getting parries, you will spend the bulk of your time in steps 3-8. Many guards will wonder why I place Brutal Assault so far down in my chain. It's not that I think it's a bad skill. In fact it is very power efficient. But its animation is somewhat long, and while it does do bonus damage, it's not enough to outweigh the damage output rapidly chaining through 3-6. I also like to hold Brutal Assault as a reserve skill, in case I am unlucky and have no parries and end up with dead-time. As for Hemorrhage (Brutal Assault's bleed), it's nice, but it's only a 50% proc, and unless I'm fighting a boss, whatever I'm fighting is going to be dead before the bleed would tick many times anyway.
What about Thrust? Thrust, while itself Fast, requires using Salt the Wound to unlock the real potential of the bleed. Unfortunately Salt the Wound is not Fast, and thus disrupts the speed and rhythm of the sequence signicantly. And once again, most foes are dead before enough bleeds ticks would occur to be worth it. Also, every use of Thrust is lost chance to crit with Overwhelm (and it does crit often when legacied!).
Obviously for PvMP it's a different story, and bleeds are your best means of getting consistent damage.
What about Sweeping Cuts? In my opinion this skill is only worth using if you are fighting more than two foes. The power consumption and animation time are otherwise not worth it in my opinion, and even though you get two swings, the long animation is delaying your auto-attack clock. In the same time you could have used another skill and made an auto-attack, for much less power. Additionally, you pretty much must use a Fast skill after Sweeping Cuts, or else you have to wait for its long action duration to expire. And did I mention its a power hog?
Multiple Targets
For multiple targets, it becomes worth it to focus on multi-target attacks such as Vexing Blow (w/Harasser), Sweeping Cuts, and Whirling Retaliation. For that reason, multi-target fights are actually much simpler to optimize. Keep your Guardian's Ward up and keep hitting those AOE attacks as they come off cooldown.
Traits
Personally, I run with Guardian's Ward, Harasser, Quickness, Raw Power, Blocking Force, Stinging Blow, and Hit Where It Hurts. The only Legendary you must have for Overpower is TTK. Hemorrhage also is good, but in my sequence less of a priority unless I know I will be fighting elite masters or higher.
Legacies
On my Overpower belt (make sure to have a dedicated OP belt), I run with +Guardian's Ward Parry Rating, +Sting Damage, and +Stagger Critical Rating. On my Overpower weapon, I have +Guardian's Ward Duration, +Overwhelm Critical Rating, -% Overpower Power Cost. I'd love to have gotten +TTK or +BA damage, but was not so lucky.
I have a separate two-hander with +AOE targets, +Vexing Blow Damage, +Sweeping Cuts Damage, and +Whirling Retaliation Damage for multi-target fights.
Other Sources of Massive Damage
Might. Your Melee Offense Rating is set to 10x your Might. My Might is 637 currently, with more room to grow. Replace useless legacies with Might legacies. Get some nice +Might jewelry. Might additionally increases your parry rating 1-for-1.
Get the best crafted relic for both your belt and weapon. Symbol of Battle, for +390 Melee Offense Rating and Melee Crit Rating.
Right now I am running at over 7000 MOR, which gives me an additional +22% damage ontop of the 31% that Overpower gives me. My critical rating is currently over 3000, giving me around 10% chance of crit and 5% chance of devastate.
Overpower Skirmishes
In skirmishes, take the Personal traits which give you additional Melee Offense Rating and Melee Crit Rating to improve these scores even further (increasing your parry rating is also helpful here). Additionally, use an Herbalist and trait her with both the single target power restore skill and the ultimate group power restore skill (even if you are just soloing, she will stack both on you). You can also have her use the skill that buffs your parry rating even further. If you're doing it right, then your soldier keeping you powered, with little to no downtime, will get you through skirmishes much faster even than if you had taken a maxed out Archer, Sage, or Warrior.
I'm sure many will challenge the bold boasts and assertions I've made above, but I stand by them. If anyone is on Landroval, I will happily give you a demonstration of what damage an Overpower Guardian can really do, while still being tons more durable/healable than a Champion in Fervour (and starting many more FM's to boot). Am I saying that OP Guardians should replace Champs and Hunters as primary DPS? No. But they can replace Champs and Hunters as a source of DPS for most end-game content. Just like Champs can tank instead of Guards.
The Price of Awesome
Of course, all my bold claims of Rawrdian pwnage are reliant on two requirements:
1) You must have aggro. If you aren't getting natural parries, you only have access to your parry chain, full of yummy Fast skills, once every 15 seconds. And if you miss Force Opening, you get nothing. Usually this is not a problem, as if you are doing the most damage, you will usually have aggro. But it can be difficult if you are undergeared compared to others in your group, or if you have a miss streak early on and fall behind (Challenge and Engage are useful here, followed by Guardian's Pledge or Eldar's Grace).
2) You must have power. You will run out of power very fast. Get tons of steeped power pots. Use them early and often. Use Take to Heart whenever it is up (again, ideally on stunned targets). Keep your eyes out for groups of 2 or more enemies so that you can run into them and use Thrill of Danger. Tell your group's Loremaster you will need power. Make sure the group's set FM has blue in it! Power power power!
Parses
These parses were taken vs. Burzthrang Mauraders (signature orcs outside Gatburz). The numbers vary wildly, based on crits, natural parries, misses, etc. Yes, these parses are lower than what the most elite Champions get--that's how it should be. But these levels of damage are certainly enough to earn your place as a DPS role in almost any group.
Great post! Question: If you have a maxed +Stagger Crit legacies, isn't that plus Hit Where it Hurts kinda redundant as it puts you over the 15% crit cap? I was looking at this today and figured my crit % to be around 21% with both the trait and the legacy. Granted that's on-level normal mobs, and the crit percentage goes down against anything higher. But that's the majority of what I'm fighting anyway, so I dropped the trait and should be around 15% now.
I do need to level up my +crit overwhelm legacy on my 2h though. A shame it's like tier 1 or something :-/.
I do need to level up my +crit overwhelm legacy on my 2h though. A shame it's like tier 1 or something :-/.
Keep in mind the following:
Simply having the legacy gives you the better half of investing plenty of pwecious LI points that could better go into Ward Dur, one of your 3 AoE Target Damage skills, AoE Targets, +TMSR, etc. The cost benefits analysis just can't justify it. They're okay legacies to have, but investing in them is foolhardy IMO unless you have no better choices.
By and large a good informative read. My big struggle on my alt OP guard is getting out of the S/B build mentality, in which I don't value might as highly.
ArcticAurora 85 S/B Guardian // Pavello 85 OP Guardian // Canadian 85 Captain
... and an army of alts LotRO 'lifer & Player Councillor
Albeit i don't really belive your statement that you can out DPS hunters your post is very good and instructive. Most of that i already use for solo, but there was a few tips that were very interesting.
Already gave +rep and congratulations on a well down DPS tutorial.
I hold single-target aggro against every class without using a single skill that has bonus threat--in other words, I tank by out-damaging the rest of my fellowship.
Before asserting this, please test without your Belt equipped and see if it's still true. My guess is that the additional threat generated by your belt is probably the reason it appears you outdamage high DPS classes.
Overall, I agree that guardian DPS in Overpower is not fully appreciated by many fellowships. However, in exchange for that extra DPS, you're giving up a fair bit of damage mitigation and making your healers work extra-hard.
I often use Overpower on single-target fights or anything where the mobs are below Elite Master because the extra DPS seems to outweigh the lower damage mitigation.
On very long fights, how does your power hold up? This is the one thing I've had trouble with since SoM rationalized weapon speeds - before SoM I never had power problems in OP because I used a big, fat, slow hammer. But today in really long fights I still have to manage power carefully now.
I want to lead off by complimenting the overall guide. I don't want the comments that follow to sound like I'm attacking the concept, but I do want to address some counterpoints and also talk more about the aggro~DPS correlation.
Originally Posted by Nemmerle
Before asserting this, please test without your Belt equipped and see if it's still true. My guess is that the additional threat generated by your belt is probably the reason it appears you outdamage high DPS classes.
^this
Aggro is a terrible indicator or DPS. Guards have several skills and other modifiers that give us more threat than what we'd get just from our DPS even if you're not using any dedicated +threat skills. The point is you're doing a lot of damage and holding aggro. That's certainly a good thing, but until you can show some parses to back it up, you shouldn't take the next step claiming that you're out-DPSing xy&z classes.
Overall, I agree that guardian DPS in Overpower is not fully appreciated by many fellowships. However, in exchange for that extra DPS, you're giving up a fair bit of damage mitigation and making your healers work extra-hard.
...as well as your LM(s).
I'm not saying that this isn't a viable strategy, and great for a lot of solo work. It's probably even beneficial in a lot of group situations vs the conventional S&B. However, there's a lot of costs that get ignored a lot of times in OP Tanking discussions.
Your mini has to work harder to keep you alive. Your LM has to focus much more on keeping you powered (and perhaps the mini too). Your group has to work in the blue conjunctions (tho in most cases, everyone's happy to have a blue boost, so this isn't really a bad thing). The margin for error is typically thinner, since you have lower defenses are are therefore more susceptible to spike damage.
So some questions come up: Would group DPS actually be better if the Mini & LM could work more on DPS (mini at least for the early part of the battle before switching to heal part way thru)? Assuming we're talking about non-trivial fights, is the extra DPS you're doing worth that reduced margin of error? Are you able to pull this off at all if you don't have a LM to keep you rolling (we've got a lot of +power tricks up our sleeves, but power dissolves at an amazing rate when running OP)? Again, assuming there is a chance of failure, would the chance of success be significantly better if the LM was more free to concentrate on CC thruout and didn't have to focus on keeping you (and the mini) powered with CC becoming his secondary focus?
A fully Bowmaster-traited Strength-stance hunter will hold aggro over any class in the game if he wants to. Nice OP guide, it's certainly a great stance, but a GRD isn't holding aggro over a fully geared STR stance hunter without the aid of snap taunts, Engage, or other f'ship members dumping aggro onto him.
Thanks for the guide, and I'll definitely be putting some of this into practice.
As essentially a DPS guide, I think it would help if you included some parse numbers not only to "prove" your points but also to give others a comparison to see how their own rotations stack up.
You complain about sweeping cut and salt the wound being "slow" skills, but you can interrupt their animation and move on with your rotation by tossing stamp in right after using one of them.
Thanks for the guide, and I'll definitely be putting some of this into practice.
As essentially a DPS guide, I think it would help if you included some parse numbers not only to "prove" your points but also to give others a comparison to see how their own rotations stack up.
Parsing to compare rotations won't do much good unless your gear/traits/etc. are all fairly matched. If you want to compare a different rotation, you'll either have to do it yourself, or post your rotation and ask if anyone else will take the time to do it for you. But it really has to be one person testing multiple rotations to get any worthwhile results.
Great post! Question: If you have a maxed +Stagger Crit legacies, isn't that plus Hit Where it Hurts kinda redundant as it puts you over the 15% crit cap? I was looking at this today and figured my crit % to be around 21% with both the trait and the legacy. Granted that's on-level normal mobs, and the crit percentage goes down against anything higher. But that's the majority of what I'm fighting anyway, so I dropped the trait and should be around 15% now.
I do need to level up my +crit overwhelm legacy on my 2h though. A shame it's like tier 1 or something :-/.
Yes, I am considering dropping Hit Where it Hurts. It really depends upon whether mobs we face in PvE have any crit defense. If they do, then extra crit rating counters that. If not, then yeah, it's kind of a waste.
Originally Posted by Nemmerle
Before asserting this, please test without your Belt equipped and see if it's still true. My guess is that the additional threat generated by your belt is probably the reason it appears you outdamage high DPS classes.
Overall, I agree that guardian DPS in Overpower is not fully appreciated by many fellowships. However, in exchange for that extra DPS, you're giving up a fair bit of damage mitigation and making your healers work extra-hard.
I often use Overpower on single-target fights or anything where the mobs are below Elite Master because the extra DPS seems to outweigh the lower damage mitigation.
On very long fights, how does your power hold up? This is the one thing I've had trouble with since SoM rationalized weapon speeds - before SoM I never had power problems in OP because I used a big, fat, slow hammer. But today in really long fights I still have to manage power carefully now.
My OP belt has no bonus threat. No inherent bonus, and no Skill Threat Up Rating legacy.
Power can be a problem in a long fight, it's true. But most of the time GGGBB conjunctions, along with judicious use of Take to Heart and Power Pots, keep me going. Even Thrill of Danger against a single boss can give enough power to last until pot cooldown expires.
Originally Posted by Dom12
Aggro is a terrible indicator or DPS. Guards have several skills and other modifiers that give us more threat than what we'd get just from our DPS even if you're not using any dedicated +threat skills. The point is you're doing a lot of damage and holding aggro. That's certainly a good thing, but until you can show some parses to back it up, you shouldn't take the next step claiming that you're out-DPSing xy&z classes.
Back before SoM, I was the top Guardian in Hakon's Pulpum parse thread, and beat out the majority of other parses. I don't know of the new parsing standard for SoM but I'd be happy to try it. Again, I'm not saying I out-DPS ALL others. I'm saying that, against the average champion or hunter, I out-DPS them. Whether that's because they are not well-geared or whether they have not optimized their skill sequences, I don't know. I also absolutely destroy Champions in spars--and not because I'm out-mitigating them. I just kill them before they can even get enough swings off to even take off 1/4 of my health, even if I get no natural parries or evades. It's my believe that Champs are better at longer, consistent DPP, because of their ICPR. But as long as an OP Guard can keep aggro and keep powered, he can just out-sprint them--all but the best.
And as for using aggro to judge damage, I think it's perfectly reasonable as long as you remove the variable factors.
Am I using a belt with any threat bonus? No.
Am I using any skill in my sequence with gives bonus threat? No.
Do Guardians get any hidden inherent threat bonus. They do not, according to Graalx.
Have I accounted for the fact that other members of my Fellowship might be granting me bonuses to threat or threat dumps or reducing their own threat? Yes. I often ask Champions, after I hold aggro off them, whether they use Ebbing Ire on me, or whether Minstrels use that skill of theirs that boosts Guard threat, or whether a Hunter is using Beneath Notice. The answer is almost always no. Champs tend to not use Ebbing Ire unless they get aggro (same with Hunters and Beneath Notice), and Minstrels tend to not boost your threat unless you ask for it.
So unless you can point to other sources of threat that I'm not considering, besides the pure damage I am doing, I feel it is safe to assume I am out-DPSing them.
I don't make these claims lightly. I understand the game and how the mechanics work, and I have tried to account for all factors. Am I 100% certain? No. But as far as I can tell, I'm out-DPSing most Champs and Hunters. You'll notice I make no such claim about my damage with respect to RK's. I don't even attempt to make a judgement about their DPS with respect to mine since they have so many variables which can affect their threat.
Originally Posted by Dom12
I'm not saying that this isn't a viable strategy, and great for a lot of solo work. It's probably even beneficial in a lot of group situations vs the conventional S&B. However, there's a lot of costs that get ignored a lot of times in OP Tanking discussions.
Your mini has to work harder to keep you alive. Your LM has to focus much more on keeping you powered (and perhaps the mini too). Your group has to work in the blue conjunctions (tho in most cases, everyone's happy to have a blue boost, so this isn't really a bad thing). The margin for error is typically thinner, since you have lower defenses are are therefore more susceptible to spike damage.
So some questions come up: Would group DPS actually be better if the Mini & LM could work more on DPS (mini at least for the early part of the battle before switching to heal part way thru)? Assuming we're talking about non-trivial fights, is the extra DPS you're doing worth that reduced margin of error? Are you able to pull this off at all if you don't have a LM to keep you rolling (we've got a lot of +power tricks up our sleeves, but power dissolves at an amazing rate when running OP)? Again, assuming there is a chance of failure, would the chance of success be significantly better if the LM was more free to concentrate on CC thruout and didn't have to focus on keeping you (and the mini) powered with CC becoming his secondary focus?
I am by no means advocating that OP should be used to tank everything. You'll notice I also have a guide in this forum for tanking and threat skills in S/B
However, Overpower tanking is of great use in the many fights that are effectively DPS races--where the boss's damage output isn't the biggest problem, but instead it's some timing element. The Turtle's acid. The fire in the first boss of SG. The skeletons adds in the third boss of SG. These are what wipe groups, and are best countered by downing the boss before they become a problem.
Additionally Sword Halls and Dungeons really don't have any enemies that do significant damage which cannot be avoided by smart play. So you might as well do more damage and be done faster.
For instances with tons of adds that need to be tanked, like HoC or 16th Hall, or instances with hard-hitting bosses (which is rare these days), or 6- and 12-man skirmishes, I definitely favor S/B.
And either way, compared to a Champ in Fervour, OP Guards are still pretty easy to heal We're a little bit more needy with Power, but I do find I can usually keep myself going without too much assistance from the group. Plus my extra DPS means the fight ends faster, so others in the Fellowship are less likely to need power from the LM. And if we get in a crisis, we still have Guardian's Pledge.
Originally Posted by Aestis25
A fully Bowmaster-traited Strength-stance hunter will hold aggro over any class in the game if he wants to. Nice OP guide, it's certainly a great stance, but a GRD isn't holding aggro over a fully geared STR stance hunter without the aid of snap taunts, Engage, or other f'ship members dumping aggro onto him.
Hunters in Strength stance occasionally pull aggro from me, but that's not a surprise since they are doing comparable damage AND have a huge blanket threat bonus. When comparing to Hunters, I usually compare to Hunters in Precision stance, as it has neutral threat (and it seems to be the stance du jour these days).
Originally Posted by Iracham
You complain about sweeping cut and salt the wound being "slow" skills, but you can interrupt their animation and move on with your rotation by tossing stamp in right after using one of them.
Yes, Stamp (an Immediate skill) can be used to cancel out long animations. However there's a couple drawbacks with using Stamp like this that make me avoid it. First, Stamp has a minute cooldown unless you devote a trait or legacy to it. So it's not like you can use it frequently. Second, I generally want to save it for actually interrupting annoying inductions, like archer disarms or berzerker heals. Third, Stamp has a very long action-duration. Sure, you get off the interrupt immediately, but then you cannot use another non-Fast skill for about a second.
Again, it comes down to Sweeping Cuts just not being worth all this effort to use against a single target. Too much power. Too much time. Yes you can reduce the time, but that itself involves using another skill (and Stamp does virtually no damage now), which means more power. And Stamp itself has a post-use-delay. I experimented with it, but I just don't think it's worth it.
You can parse a couple dozen Marauders around Gathburz as a solo exercise. You'd be better off getting a comparably geared Champ and any healing and go pound out a few Sword Halls easy mode runs. Either parse everyone yourself or have the Champ parse himself and you measure your performance and see what shakes out.
Personally I'm not seeing the damage I did before Moria. It's still solid but it's not neck and neck with top geared Champs like it was before the combat changes.
Good guide though, a few quibbling points notwithstanding. It will give those that aren't as in to Overpower a good leg up on how to run a good rotation.
7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar All of them are sick of grinding Scrolls of Empowerment Awaiting change...
You can parse a couple dozen Marauders around Gathburz as a solo exercise. You'd be better off getting a comparably geared Champ and any healing and go pound out a few Sword Halls easy mode runs. Either parse everyone yourself or have the Champ parse himself and you measure your performance and see what shakes out.
Personally I'm not seeing the damage I did before Moria. It's still solid but it's not neck and neck with top geared Champs like it was before the combat changes.
Good guide though, a few quibbling points notwithstanding. It will give those that aren't as in to Overpower a good leg up on how to run a good rotation.
Sword Halls is rough for parsing because of the stuns and having to run away from the roving fire patch. Though I suppose the bat boss is a pretty simple bag o' hit points, as long as you interrupt the bat induction.
And sily NAT, you don't need Healing for Sword Halls (easy mode)
And as for using aggro to judge damage, I think it's perfectly reasonable as long as you remove the variable factors.
Am I using a belt with any threat bonus? No.
Am I using any skill in my sequence with gives bonus threat? No.
Do Guardians get any hidden inherent threat bonus. They do not, according to Graalx.
Have I accounted for the fact that other members of my Fellowship might be granting me bonuses to threat or threat dumps or reducing their own threat? Yes. I often ask Champions, after I hold aggro off them, whether they use Ebbing Ire on me, or whether Minstrels use that skill of theirs that boosts Guard threat, or whether a Hunter is using Beneath Notice. The answer is almost always no. Champs tend to not use Ebbing Ire unless they get aggro (same with Hunters and Beneath Notice), and Minstrels tend to not boost your threat unless you ask for it.
So unless you can point to other sources of threat that I'm not considering, besides the pure damage I am doing, I feel it is safe to assume I am out-DPSing them.
I don't know of any factors you haven't covered. Indeed, from the information we have available, you probably are out-DPSing them in these cases. However, there's still some black-box aspects of threat that keep me from trusting it as a real DPS meter. But again, I realize that's really not the point of the discussion. You're doing significantly more DPS than you would be S&B, and you're still maintaining aggro. So that's what really matters here.
However, Overpower tanking is of great use in the many fights that are effectively DPS races--where the boss's damage output isn't the biggest problem, but instead it's some timing element. The Turtle's acid. The fire in the first boss of SG. The skeletons adds in the third boss of SG. These are what wipe groups, and are best countered by downing the boss before they become a problem.
I'd still be curious whether the increased DPS a guard does in OP exceeds what could be done by letting the mini stay in warspeech longer, or what could be done by using more damage-oriented CJs (doubtful since CJ damage is pretty weak these days), or whatever. I'm not saying you need to test this, just pointing out some of the tradeoffs that are probably taking place when a guard tanks in OP.
Of course, another part of the equation is the guard him/herself. Maybe you running OP can improve the group DPS more than any of the options that involve staying w/ S&B. But maybe Johnny-the-average-OP-guard doesn't have the perfect setup, or doesn't have his skill sequence down as well. It may be that the top echelon get a net (group) gain, whereas the next tier of good-but-not-awesome guards are actually slowing their group down by doing this.
I'd be curious how much slower a run would go for you if you went S&B (with a really good group around you) and told the others (healer in particular) to try to max their DPS for as long as possible in addition to doing RRRYY or RRRRRX CJs instead of blues.
I am by no means advocating that OP should be used to tank everything. You'll notice I also have a guide in this forum for tanking and threat skills in S/B
Hmm, that's probably why I couldn't rep+ this guide.. "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Forohir again"
-incoming healing penalty coming to Overpower in 3.......2.........1........
Gladden Server - No Quarter: Xerogar - lvl 65 Guardian | Xerobpe - lvl 65 Champion | Xeroric - lvl 61 Captain | Xerotrace - lvl 55 Burglar | Knitters - Rank 6 Weaver | Fortes fortuna adiuvat Originally posted by chosen2: "All I can say about Xero guys is... If he ever posts against you on the forums just admit defeat. I learned the hard way. His extremely long posts cause cancer."
I'd be curious how much slower a run would go for you if you went S&B (with a really good group around you) and told the others (healer in particular) to try to max their DPS for as long as possible in addition to doing RRRYY or RRRRRX CJs instead of blues.
Yeah, when I turtle up and trait/equip for tanking, I often feel like for 90% of the instance that the Minstrel is probably bored. And yet I rarely see a Minstrel bust out War speech. I think they have just as many power problems in WS as we do in Overpower (if not moreso), and thus they are afraid to risk using too much power in case they need to switch to healing in an emergency.
I do think a Warrior-skald traited Minstrel can do some serious burst DPS as well (especially up front with Orome and Piercing Cry). I'm not sure if they can compete with a Guardian though (they cannot cheese the combat clock like we can). And they don't have any tools to get power back, do they? Besides just having tons of Will and Fate to begin with.
But yeah. Certainly there are many permutations of a fellowship of how to achieve more damage in less threatening situations. Unfortunately, we don't have WoW's dual-spec system yet, so it's hard to switch up mid-instance. Sure, you can switch to OP stance when traited for tanking, or bring out your sword/board when traited Keen Blade, but you're not going to be very effective.
-incoming healing penalty coming to Overpower in 3.......2.........1........
That would be pretty devastating, as our damage goes down tremendously if we don't have aggro. But if we are hard to heal, then that pretty much ends Overpower tanking.
I think Turbine's solution for trying to keep OP guards in check is to really make the power costs prohibitive. They went up even further with SoM. But SoM also made power pots extremely easy to get, so we can still manage.
I can't stress that enough though--you really can't run a sequence like the one I posted without carrying around 20+ steeped power pots. Fortunately you can trade them for Malledhrim leaves, 1-for-1 at Gathburz.
I think someone should pick a standard, easy to find, elite mob and have us a regular, ol' fashioned parse off . Get some champs and hunters to contribute as well. Has to be soloable so you're not getting any sort of damage buffs from group members. And you have to do it sans buffs - no might food, no scrolls, nada. And no popping pledge for parry responses. The elite guys that wander around Gathburz come to mind as bein a potentially good test mob but i'm open to suggestions.
While I dont expect to be rollin in with the highest numbers (my OP build atm is moors first, pve 2nd, so I focus on morale just as much - and no symbol of battle's or 2nd age 2h), I am very curious to see where we stand nowadays dps wise in relation to the other classes.
Ik in MoM I was parsing numbers higher than all but the hottest geared champs and rk's on the turtle - but thats a tough call as I was gettin call to arms sometimes, other times not. Mini melee dmg buff. Hunters holding back somewhat at the beginning. Me getting fed power or not. Other ppl getting fed power or not. Seems to me like way too many outside factors to accurately draw conclusions off turtle runs.
Sword Halls is rough for parsing because of the stuns and having to run away from the roving fire patch. Though I suppose the bat boss is a pretty simple bag o' hit points, as long as you interrupt the bat induction.
And sily NAT, you don't need Healing for Sword Halls (easy mode)
You bring a healer so you don't have to run from the fire. You shouldn't have to deal with stuns from anyone but the last boss with Clobber around.
It's not ideal, but it's consistent, spammable, and you get something out of your testing time for everyone involved. It's easier to find people to help you parse if there's more in it for them than the geeky satisfaction of parsing your DPS.
Originally Posted by Xeroproject
-incoming healing penalty coming to Overpower in 3.......2.........1........
I lol'd.
7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar All of them are sick of grinding Scrolls of Empowerment Awaiting change...
The Power hit that was added to OP stance is already enough of a hindrance. 30% is a big chunk, and we don't have the ICPR that champs do. A Healing hit to it would be plain out overkill.
ArcticAurora 85 S/B Guardian // Pavello 85 OP Guardian // Canadian 85 Captain
... and an army of alts LotRO 'lifer & Player Councillor
Easy way to Parse vs another, Go get an attack skirm that's 3-man, then burn the elites, or run a fellowship instance and burn the elite regular mobs solo. Do something like TaT or TaM with no soldiers, or only morale healing Herbalists.
Easy way to Parse vs another, Go get an attack skirm that's 3-man, then burn the elites, or run a fellowship instance and burn the elite regular mobs solo. Do something like TaT or TaM with no soldiers, or only morale healing Herbalists.
It's fairly difficult to get a single mob in skirmishes.
Right now I am thinking the bat boss in SH is best. with an LM to give Stun Immunity.
That would be pretty devastating, as our damage goes down tremendously if we don't have aggro. But if we are hard to heal, then that pretty much ends Overpower tanking.
I think Turbine's solution for trying to keep OP guards in check is to really make the power costs prohibitive. They went up even further with SoM. But SoM also made power pots extremely easy to get, so we can still manage.
I can't stress that enough though--you really can't run a sequence like the one I posted without carrying around 20+ steeped power pots. Fortunately you can trade them for Malledhrim leaves, 1-for-1 at Gathburz.
I agree that it would be devastating to Overpower Tankers but I would also throw out there that it (nerfs) is what happens when perversions of what the devs intend start becoming rampant. Basically what I'm saying is that by posting such a guide you may have just hastened the process of ending the practice. There's already plenty of case evidence out there with Champ's Frevour & then Controlled Burn adjustments that Turbine is not hot to the idea of DPS tanks.
My stance on it is good for you, its cool that you can do that, but personally I'm going to stick with being able to hold threat over the other classes on 3+ mobs and I'm going to do it with my shield on. I'll keep using OP for soloing and small group work.
Gladden Server - No Quarter: Xerogar - lvl 65 Guardian | Xerobpe - lvl 65 Champion | Xeroric - lvl 61 Captain | Xerotrace - lvl 55 Burglar | Knitters - Rank 6 Weaver | Fortes fortuna adiuvat Originally posted by chosen2: "All I can say about Xero guys is... If he ever posts against you on the forums just admit defeat. I learned the hard way. His extremely long posts cause cancer."
i think bein grouped whatsoever and doin it is too tricky - too much of a chance for dmg buffs or debuffs or skills not related to just straight up destruction slipping in.
fought 5 Bizurthrang Marauders (elite guys outside gathburz - real easy to find - no sort of inc damage buffs or disarms or anything fancy).
average was 398 dps. highest was 428 dps. Didnt use charge and started the fights with a melee attack so cstats wouldnt start logging with some bow auto attacks.
(again, my might is lower than i'd like, im still chasin tolloch's and tinc-iaeth for OP mode, no symbols of battle, and a 3rd age 2h - so ya, i dont expect those numbers to be epic - just kickin it off)
i was also thinkin the bounties troll might be a better test, although its kind of a pain in the *** and the fact that its 5 lvls lower than us will negate some ppl's crit rating. but if ppl trudge out there and bring back cstats numbers from him, i'll do the same.
I have mixed emotions about this entire thread. There is some good information on skill rotations and the usefulness of OP for more than JUST soloing, with proviso made for where s/b is to be preferred and possibly required. Were that all, I would agree and ratify with a rep bump. I readily use and enjoy OP for solo and small group situtations alike, and for spar and the 'Moors.
However, I am concerned that some degree of "gilding of the lilly" via gratuitous hyperbolic ego-based statements was unfortunately and unecessarily included, and which negatively colored my read and appreciation for the overall post. Where gently called into question by others above, the OP elected to moderately hedge away from the overstated position taken initially...but actually inadequately so imo. I hope that I can with due respect and appreciation for a clearly knowledgeable poster, be slightly less gentle in saying directly to him that I would have preferred a simple straight forward restatement such as, "yeah...I guess I got a little carried away...but there are many times my damage in OP sure seems to lock aggro in, so my dps must be up there pretty high in OP stance."
My concern is not to attack the OP and the grandiose statement, or even the degree of hedging that followed when called on it... but simply that an incorrect prospect be considered by a dev reading the post as gospel truth: that an OP guardian can straight out-dps all classes in the game EXCEPT the best geared hunters or champs -- which happens to be the actual original claim/language, irrespective of the later hedging and mention of RK's., etc.
This is the kind of statement that feeds right into the champions making noise over their fervor incoming healing nerf vs. our OP stance. It is flatly incorrect...a reasonable player of several classes, inclusive at the very least of hunters, champs, RK's and burglars, all with equivalent level/quality equipment as an OP guardian comparing damage rates, will regularly "out-dps" the guardian irrespective of the guards magical skill rotations. An OP guardian can do amazing and too often underestimated amounts of single target dps, to be sure --but in actuality that has been somewhat reduced already by the combat changes and weapon speed standardizatrion of SoM, imo.
No further nerfs are needed...OP power consumption and speed standardization has already accomplished more than enough nerf to a stance I love and enjoy.
Finally, I note that I am not an experienced user of these forums, so was unable to locate the actual name of the OP's guardian to take a peek at his stats on mylotro. I lwork hard on maximizing my character's stats (see signature below) and would certainly like to take a peek at the OP's build regardless of my concerns expressed here...I suspect without reservation that it must be a very solid build and that I could learn things from looking at the stats...any assistance in this regard by the OP or others will be appreciated.
My concern is not to attack the OP and the grandiose statement, or even the degree of hedging that followed when called on it... but simply that an incorrect prospect be considered by a dev reading the post as gospel truth: that an OP guardian can straight out-dps all classes in the game EXCEPT the best geared hunters or champs
I wouldn't worry too much about that. Given that the devs have access to player data from every server, I'd imagine that any changes they make to class balance ae based on consideration of trends at the macro level across the game. I've never believed that the incoming healing penalty to Fervour was ever based on forums posts by Champs who were bragging about Fervour tanking or by Guardians bemoaning the loss of their role in groups. While it may be true that such posts alerted the devs to the possibility of an issue with Fervour tanking, had the data not showed that Fervour tanking was indeed widespread and that Guardians were indeed losing their place in groups, then no change would have been made. Similarly, while this post might cause a curious dev to look into just how much damage Guardians are doing in OP stance, if the numbers do not indicate a class imbalance, then I would expect no change to be made.
I'd like to point out that (This is especially applicable if you are using a weapon that suits your race's weapon bonus trait to cancel out the loss) raw power is an inefficient trait in my eyes. 3% damage is nice and all, but if you think about it +5% power cost is ALOT. I like that my weapon has -% OP cost, that and not slotting OP gives a significant power cost reduction.
My power pool lasts much longer and in the end I end up doing more damage due to being able to DPS more consistently.
I'd like to point out that (This is especially applicable if you are using a weapon that suits your race's weapon bonus trait to cancel out the loss) raw power is an inefficient trait in my eyes. 3% damage is nice and all, but if you think about it +5% power cost is ALOT. I like that my weapon has -% OP cost, that and not slotting OP gives a significant power cost reduction.
My power pool lasts much longer and in the end I end up doing more damage due to being able to DPS more consistently.
Overpower itself is not about efficiency. It's about DPS. The skill sequence I posted, in particular, is skewed entirely toward spamming your main-hand damage as much as possible--not using the most efficient skills.
If you are going for power efficiency, you should stick with Vexing Blow, Salt the Wound, Retaliation, Thrust, TTK and Brutal Assault. You should never touch Sweeping Cuts or Stagger, and even Sting is a bit pricey.
And obviously if my power usage was so bad that I run out of power half-way through a boss fight, then indeed my skill sequence is worthless. But no, I don't run out of power. I have to work at it not to, with pots and proper use of power-restoring skills, but by no means am I on the edge of running out all the time. And that's with only 120 Will and 175 Fate.
By the way, for those wanting to see my character, here he is:
Note that my Morale in Overpower is actually 6302. Not sure why it's reading so low on mylotro (maybe it took its last snapshot when I had some dread?). Note also that my stats change considerably if I'm in sword and board.
Currently I am really hoping to get a brass anvil to raise up my Might and Agility a bit more. Both will also go up as I get more Scrolls of Empowerment, since my OP belt and OP weapon both have +Might and +Agility legacies that are currently not maxed out.
I don't get it. Are you trying to maximize DPS or tank in Overpower?
Your trait set is weird if you're trying to DPS, and if you're trying to tank, 6.3k is way low. I know Champions who have more than that, and that's without the Glory bonus or a 5:1 ratio.
"and congrats on grd being godmode in MoM.....havnt seen much of you since....wonder why." - Puppydawg
I have mixed emotions about this entire thread. There is some good information on skill rotations and the usefulness of OP for more than JUST soloing, with proviso made for where s/b is to be preferred and possibly required. Were that all, I would agree and ratify with a rep bump. I readily use and enjoy OP for solo and small group situtations alike, and for spar and the 'Moors.
However, I am concerned that some degree of "gilding of the lilly" via gratuitous hyperbolic ego-based statements was unfortunately and unecessarily included, and which negatively colored my read and appreciation for the overall post. Where gently called into question by others above, the OP elected to moderately hedge away from the overstated position taken initially...but actually inadequately so imo. I hope that I can with due respect and appreciation for a clearly knowledgeable poster, be slightly less gentle in saying directly to him that I would have preferred a simple straight forward restatement such as, "yeah...I guess I got a little carried away...but there are many times my damage in OP sure seems to lock aggro in, so my dps must be up there pretty high in OP stance."
My concern is not to attack the OP and the grandiose statement, or even the degree of hedging that followed when called on it... but simply that an incorrect prospect be considered by a dev reading the post as gospel truth: that an OP guardian can straight out-dps all classes in the game EXCEPT the best geared hunters or champs -- which happens to be the actual original claim/language, irrespective of the later hedging and mention of RK's., etc.
This is the kind of statement that feeds right into the champions making noise over their fervor incoming healing nerf vs. our OP stance. It is flatly incorrect...a reasonable player of several classes, inclusive at the very least of hunters, champs, RK's and burglars, all with equivalent level/quality equipment as an OP guardian comparing damage rates, will regularly "out-dps" the guardian irrespective of the guards magical skill rotations. An OP guardian can do amazing and too often underestimated amounts of single target dps, to be sure --but in actuality that has been somewhat reduced already by the combat changes and weapon speed standardizatrion of SoM, imo.
No further nerfs are needed...OP power consumption and speed standardization has already accomplished more than enough nerf to a stance I love and enjoy.
Finally, I note that I am not an experienced user of these forums, so was unable to locate the actual name of the OP's guardian to take a peek at his stats on mylotro. I lwork hard on maximizing my character's stats (see signature below) and would certainly like to take a peek at the OP's build regardless of my concerns expressed here...I suspect without reservation that it must be a very solid build and that I could learn things from looking at the stats...any assistance in this regard by the OP or others will be appreciated.
The disparity between DPS of two players--even of the same class and gear--is often going to be very wide, due to skill sequences and player understanding of the rather arcane and complicated combat system.
Yet despite this, there is a natural assumption that a Champion or Hunter or other DPS class is always going to do more damage than a Guardian, and thus many groups are wary of taking a Guardian in a DPS role.
I am trying to challenge this stigma. A Guardian in Overpower can put out very high DPS (again at the expense of power) that, in my experience, out-damages most Hunters and Champions. My Guardian will put out the most DPS in the fellowship unless the Hunters or Champions are truly masters of maximizing their DPS. I say that because it's what I've experienced, day in and day out.
Frankly, most Hunters and Champions are not masters of maximizing DPS. The game's combat system is arcane and complicated--not at all elegant or intuitive--and most players have not done their homework to figure out how to maximize their DPS--either before or after SoM's combat overhaul.
Now, whether I could match the DPS of a Champion who is excellently geared, and who truly understands combat mechanics and timing--I can't say. It's possible I could match the DPS, but I almost certainly cannot match the staying power of the Champ. And again, I have to have the aggro to be doing my maximum damage (a quality that is unique to the Guardian and comes with its own risks).
Is all my boasting going to get us Guards nerfed? If it does, then you might as well lose all faith you have in the devs--they should never base decisions on a couple of forum-goers' claims of TEH AWESUM. But it won't. The devs have tons of data, and even if there is the occasional outlier like me (or Guards who play similarly to me), the devs know that unlocking that potential is not trivial or easy. It requires timing and careful use of skills, along with ****-tons of power pots
Additionally the majority of Guards (who do not look at these forums or at dev diaries, and who do not know what a 'Fast' skill is), if they even ever go into Overpower stance, will still be attacking in nice slow sequences of non-Fast skills, like a Captain. And they will easily be outdamaged by the most inane Champions and Hunters. Though at least they'll have power
I don't get it. Are you trying to maximize DPS or tank in Overpower?
Your trait set is weird if you're trying to DPS, and if you're trying to tank, 6.3k is way low. I know Champions who have more than that, and that's without the Glory bonus or a 5:1 ratio.
6.3k is just fine for anything but raid content. Which obviously I am not trying to tank in Overpower. There hasn't been a hard-hitting boss in a non-raid since Gurvand. In my opinion, going much above 6k is a waste unless you are a main tank on a raid. Morale is cheap.
And what is weird about my trait set for DPS?
Raw Power, Stinging Blow, Hit Where it Hurts, and Quickness all contribute directly to DPS. Blocking Force lowers the cooldown on Force Opening, which is key to opening up my parry chain. Harasser gives me another AOE. Guardian's Ward improves my parry rating, which leads to more DPS.
Which of these traits do not contribute to DPS, and more importantly, what traits would you take in their stead that do contribute to DPS, that I'm not already taking?
Also, I'll repeat this: to maximize DPS, a Guardian must have aggro. They must be getting natural parries. So your question of "Are you trying to tank or DPS?" is inappropriate in its assumption. To DPS, I need to be tanking at least one target.
6.3k is just fine for anything but raid content. Which obviously I am not trying to tank in Overpower. There hasn't been a hard-hitting boss in a non-raid since Gurvand. In my opinion, going much above 6k is a waste unless you are a main tank on a raid. Morale is cheap.
The point is, if you have roughly the same amount of Morale as a Fervour Champion, and you're tanking content that's not Barad Guldur, what justification is there not to take a Fervour Champ in your place?
Ok, better question. Why are you using the Bracelets you are using, when you could be using the Insidious Cuff-like bracelet from the Haunted Inn? That's probably 1 of the main reasons your morale is so low.
6.3k is ok if you're contributing a large portion of damage, or other benefits (like a Burglar or Champion), but if your class is based on improved Defense at the cost of a bit of Offense, why are you not taking advantage of your Defense?
And what is weird about my trait set for DPS?
Raw Power, Stinging Blow, Hit Where it Hurts, and Quickness all contribute directly to DPS. Blocking Force lowers the cooldown on Force Opening, which is key to opening up my parry chain. Harasser gives me another AOE. Guardian's Ward improves my parry rating, which leads to more DPS.
Which of these traits do not contribute to DPS, and more importantly, what traits would you take in their stead that do contribute to DPS, that I'm not already taking?
You mentioned something about not utilizing Hemorrhage. Which is a significant loss in DPS.
Also, I'll repeat this: to maximize DPS, a Guardian must have aggro. They must be getting natural parries. So your question of "Are you trying to tank or DPS?" is inappropriate in its assumption. To DPS, I need to be tanking at least one target.
That's not true. Guardians build up a significant amount of damage with positional. On your belt you can get +Positional Damage on Stagger, which adds with your base positional damage with Stagger.
"and congrats on grd being godmode in MoM.....havnt seen much of you since....wonder why." - Puppydawg
I thank you for sharing your guard's mylotro profile -- it should take a better snapshot of your morale the next time you log out, so no worry there. Your might is very nice -- I also would like to acquire that new necklace from HoC to push my own unbuffed over 600, and your melee crit is nice, presumably from +390's on both your sword and belt.
Currently, I also use OP stance in tanking HoC, GS, Forges, FG and similar such in helping my kinmates' alts, who are still leveling/equipping up to match their main characters -- which appears to be approximately the level of gear and jewelry you have on your guard presently. I also have no problem keeping pace and all aggro via the dps of OP for that level of mobs and fellowship members. OP can be used also for some of the newer 3-man content, especially with known allies who will also work well with you to control their own aggro a bit if/when needed.
You acknowledge that you do not use OP when "raiding"...I further suggest to you that, regardless of the unlocking of any magical skill sequences and/or other specialized knowledge you allude to regarding the "arcane combat system," that it is not feasible to match or exceed the DPS of even slightly above average characters (champs, hunters and such) that are suitably leveled and equipped to handle even 6-man instances such as SG, much less the 12-man BG.
You are probably correct that I need not concern myself overmuch that a dev might read this post and another nerf to OP might immediately follow. I do maintain and must reiterate my feeling that your boasts are unwarranted, but do not seek to take anything away from the other good information you related in the OP...I just suggest that you would have come across a bit better and your message been less marred (to my ears anyway), had it been delivered with a greater degree of humility, even if in your own mind you are convinced of such things absent of actual data to support them.
The point is, if you have roughly the same amount of Morale as a Fervour Champion, and you're tanking content that's not Barad Guldur, what justification is there not to take a Fervour Champ in your place?
Ok, better question. Why are you using the Bracelets you are using, when you could be using the Insidious Cuff-like bracelet from the Haunted Inn? That's probably 1 of the main reasons your morale is so low.
6.3k is ok if you're contributing a large portion of damage, or other benefits (like a Burglar or Champion), but if your class is based on improved Defense at the cost of a bit of Offense, why are you not taking advantage of your Defense?
I don't swap out jewelry every time I switch between tanking and Overpower. The bracelets I have now are a good compromise between both. They give me Might and Agility (which are useful in both S/B and OP) and a little bit of block rating. I'll take a look at these bracelets you're talking about, but if they are just Morale-bags then I'm not interested. Focusing on Morale and Vitality are worthless 90% of the time, in my opinion, and I generally do not do the other 10% of content that rewards/requires high morale. Instead I focus on Might, Agility, BPE, Armour, and Melee Defense Rating. Those effectively make each point of my morale far more durable.
As for "why take an OP Guard instead of a Fervour Champ"? A Fervour Champ cannot parry and takes -30% healing. I can be healed normally and am parrying 20+% of the time, and evading a bit too. Additionally, I have long cooldown skills like Challenge the Darkness and Guardian's Pledge, which can save a group from a wipe (as happened last night on Gorothul). Additionally, every time I use To the King, I can start a conjunction if I crit. And that happens quite a lot--so much so that the Burglar in my group last night was complaining about Guards stealing his thunder, and wishing he had a skill like To the King.
Originally Posted by Rogmar
You mentioned something about not utilizing Hemorrhage. Which is a significant loss in DPS.
I said I do not bother with Hemorrhage unless I know I will be fighting elite masters or higher. Everything else dies too quickly for the 50% chance of bleed to be worth it. Keep in mind I retrait daily as I switch between tanking and Overpower. If I don't need to slot in Hemorrhage (i.e. if I'm just soloing), I don't. If I'm taking Overpower into an instance, I will go to the bard and pay the 100s to put it in.
Originally Posted by Rogmar
That's not true. Guardians build up a significant amount of damage with positional. On your belt you can get +Positional Damage on Stagger, which adds with your base positional damage with Stagger.
Yes, I had this legacy on my original 59 TA belt. Haven't gotten lucky with it again on a 65 TA yet. However, that +Positional Damage with Stagger does not come anywhere close to the DPS you get from Retaliation, Thrust, Overwhelm, and To the King, which all require a parry.
Ok, better question. Why are you using the Bracelets you are using, when you could be using the Insidious Cuff-like bracelet from the Haunted Inn? That's probably 1 of the main reasons your morale is so low.
Are you talking about Angechor (Level 61)? I think given the power issues, you probably wouldn't want to give up the PIC on your wrists.
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When tanking in Overpower (which you can do for 80% of the content at level 65), I regularly hold single-target aggro against every class without using a single skill that has bonus threat--in other words, I tank by out-damaging the rest of my fellowship. Now, am I saying that I out-damage every conceivable player of every other class? No. Just that in my experience, I very rarely lose aggro when in Overpower, even though I'm not using anything but damage skills (nor do I have any bonus threat from belts or anything).
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Originally Posted by Gavving
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Dahm 65H | Thuli 65G | Dudarian 20W :: The Grey Wanderers of Brandywine
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You shouldn't have to deal with stuns from anyone but the last boss with Clobber around. 
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Re: Forohir's Guide to Melting Faces in Overpower
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