Thread: Not related to the Hunter Class, but germane to the Community

I spend a lot of time on the Hunter Boards and am most familiar with the regulars here. So, as a poll of interest, is there anyone that is interested in some low level perma-death game play? Something where GA or possibly even Fornost would be the Endgame?

Recently, I have been enjoying lower level play more than the most recent content and just wanted to take a poll of the people that I interact with on the forums but never (or rarely) get to play with.

Were on different servers though

If you were only on Nimrohel I could roll out a brand spankin new Grd/CHamp/ or what ever else my toon line is. I have 9 characters of course

I do have to say I have enjoyed the lower lvl content as well vs some of the higher lvl content for the continual grinding.

Lemme know whats goin on and I may just have to pull out a tiny toon to roll with yah on a server of some kind.

You can make characters on any server you like you know. Nothing stopping you from making a lowbie on BW...you can even get SB to bankroll you since you're all alone on a new server.

I might be interested SB, assuming of course we have play times that work together (9:00-9:30 CST login to whenever). Perma-death in GA or Fornost sounds interesting.

I've always thought that sounded like a really cool idea. Time is the issue for me tho. I play less than most of my kin-mates as it is, splitting that time up even further would be tough. Still, it would be cool to play with some of the guys I've become rather pseudo-familiar with around here..

Well, that's 4 of us and we could all go to a different server for this little experiment... with Mang no longer with us, we could probably play around on Vilya without being noticed. It would be the most ballslapingest hardcore lowbie permadeath. No gifts from established characters, we would all or mostly be on a server that we are unfamiliar with and would have to deal with the gear/trait deficiency by being awesome.

Time could be an issue, but for the most part, we could just solo or mostly solo to the major instances (Great Barrows first) then coordinate time to run the instance on level. It would be a side project from normal play.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Well, that's 4 of us and we could all go to a different server for this little experiment... with Mang no longer with us, we could probably play around on Vilya without being noticed. It would be the most ballslapingest hardcore lowbie permadeath. No gifts from established characters, we would all or mostly be on a server that we are unfamiliar with and would have to deal with the gear/trait deficiency by being awesome.

Time could be an issue, but for the most part, we could just solo or mostly solo to the major instances (Great Barrows first) then coordinate time to run the instance on level. It would be a side project from normal play.

Bolded and colored for emphasis. How are people not signing up in droves after reading this? @2/6, who else feels up to being awesome?

I can play any class but LM well. I'll pick whatever fills in the biggest gap.

I figure most people have mixed feelings about "ballslappingness"... be that as it may, I think I will start things up on Vilya... probably blast a Hunter or Champ to 20ish to act as the Founder that will keep the kin open while people re-roll and can shoot mail/tells to for reinvites. As much as I hate it, it may be necessary for EVERYONE to become an officer just to facilitate the rerolls.

Obviously some details to work out, but as more people show interest (may pose it to some of my kinnies) it should come together for some good times.

I don't know how you guys do it. I can't stand the leveling in this game. I've rolled 3 toons in 3 years so that pretty much tells you all you need to know. lol

But I like the perma-death idea. I played on some public NWN mod servers back in the day that had perma-death. They were the "hardcore" servers. Believe me. You didn't want to die. Months of time and effort down the tubes if you did. Super fun.

With how fast leveling goes pre-30 with all the revamps, Lowbie Permadeath seems surprisingly practical since its really not all that much time that was lost if you die... and of course, not dying is the name of the game. It could be awkward in GB though... if one person dies, that pretty much scraps the run... so there may have to be an allowance for one OOC rez per instance run per player... but if the healer dies, everyone should just re-roll for their punishment. (only half serious)

I think that the only place it can fail is if too many death exceptions are allowed... Does lagwallofdoom count as a death? Does chicken play death count? My biggest fear is that once I get a dozen or so people playing permadeath seriously, most of them can't seem to play well with each other despite being good players in their own right.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Does chicken play death count?

Personally, I'd recommend that if your character dies, they're ****ing dead, regardless of how or why it happened. Nice and easy, and avoids any confusion. Since you don't really use your own character in Chicken Play, I wouldn't expect it to count.

Though a permadeath Chicken Play run might be entertaining...

Chicken Play is extremely under-rated and underutilized.

I know I can make a toon on any server

Ill be up for it as long as it works with a general time we all can rock out and play on. Im EAST COAST and dont get on until late unless I should be on the game sooner. Although Thursday Night is a rarity since SUPERNATURAL is on and I watch that

Typically I get done around 9pm est so from 9:30+ I can roll out.

Then we all need to convey what dang Class were gonna roll out on. I can play pretty much anything but I refuse to play a damn Guardian. They are really really boring.

Also after Class Choice are we picking a generalized race to avoid the whole different locations intro thing?

Although I dont think I could make it a permanent thing for me if its not on Nimrodel since well...I have my own Kinship to run on their and I love my boys n girls in my kin . Wont leave em for the dickens of me.

Originally Posted by Kannos1600

Although Thursday Night is a rarity since SUPERNATURAL is on and I watch that

That's what DVRs are for. Watch TV on your schedule, not theirs!

...but I refuse to play a damn Guardian. They are really really boring.

I'll show you boring....

But seriously, guard would probably be my first choice. Don't know if I'd want to learn a new class in a perma-death situation, and given the roots of this idea, I expect I won't need to be the hunter.

Also after Class Choice are we picking a generalized race to avoid the whole different locations intro thing?

Once you get thru the intro instance, you can quick travel to any of the starter areas, so I don't think race choice is really an issue.



As far as rules, there used to be a guy around here that promoted his PD group.. had a pretty extensive rule-set. I was hoping some of the threads were still around, but I can't find any of them - nothing on the lorebook side either. IIRC the only "allowed" deaths were the forced deaths like the one at the end of one of the later vol1 epics (don't remember where that was, book 8, maybe?). I know there was lengthy discussion about places like GB, but it's been quite a while since I read that & I can't remember what they did with those.

Most of that stuff has been made easier, but there's still a pretty high risk if you're anywhere near on-level. Obviously, we could just wait till we're high enough to significantly reduce the risk, but that wouldn't be much fun. I'm not sure what the best solution would be. I think that the allure of a permadeath kin would be the RP aspect. If one of us dies, especially while with the group, that character is dead, period. Making an exception just because it happened in a hard instance seems to cheapen that aspect.


A couple other questions:

Would your intention be to have this be just a group of six? So any full-group stuff would always be the same group? Ideally, that would be cool, but obviously there's a lot of problems with that concept, from scheduling conflicts (you don't really want to be taking PUGers into a perma-death situation...), to waiting for a new character to catch up after an old one dies.

Bloody-hell.. I did have a question #2.. I'll get back to that when I remember it.

Wait were playing this out like Hardcore Diablo 2 on Battlenet?

So if my oh lets say...well played out Hobbit suddenly bolts off a cliff out of sheer amazement it survived to lvl 10 and suicided itself id be out like a fat kid on cake? Like a midget in a slam dunk contest? Like a one legged man in an **** kicking contest? Like Monica on the President?

Originally Posted by Dom12

Although Thursday Night is a rarity since SUPERNATURAL is on and I watch that

Its the only night I watch TV honestly so I dont mind watching it on CW's schedule. Plus I dont like watching it Online and dont have DVR.

Originally Posted by Dom12

I'll show you boring....

I played a Guardian for up to lvl 15 and stopped playing him. Just really boring to me. Although I love players who have a high lvl Guardian and know how to play them. Those buggers are pretty friggin awesome once you get em going

Oh yeah, the other question was regarding play time. This is likely to be a small group (even if not restricted to an even 6) with various availability. It might be good to discuss how much play time per week is expected. Not suggesting a strict rule, but a rough guideline would probably be helpful. I could probably put in 3-4 solo hours/wk at the minimum with possibly 10+ more depending on RL stuff and what's going on w/ my mains & kin at the time (right now, oddly, kin play is a bit slow).

Another thought. Would anyone be likely to bother with crafting beyond just selling raw (or perhaps treated) mats? With the chance that your character could die, losing any crafting progress, I'd guess that would probably be out. If anyone in the group had extra time and wanted to, they could have crafting alt(s) who lived a simpler life. I think they should still be held to the perma-death rules, but they just wouldn't do anything risky. We probably would be fine just running explorers and using the AH for any crafted item needs..



Another "rules" question. What happens on death? That other PD group I mentioned recommended that any "dead" players do one of the following: delete the character, transfer to another server, or (I think this was an option) change their characters name and no longer associate with the PD group on that character. I'd be fine with just deleting the character, or more likely just not playing the char anymore unless I needed the slot.

Then the related question of what do you do with the stuff? If a group member falls in battle, do you empty their pockets before you bury them and distribute it among the group? Can they bequeath their unbound stuff to their next of kin (being that player's next character)? Or are they "buried" with all their stuff?

Originally Posted by Kannos1600

Wait were playing this out like Hardcore Diablo 2 on Battlenet?

So if my oh lets say...well played out Hobbit suddenly bolts off a cliff out of sheer amazement it survived to lvl 10 and suicided itself id be out like a fat kid on cake? Like a midget in a slam dunk contest? Like a one legged man in an **** kicking contest? Like Monica on the President?

I really wish I could find the posts by the guy who used to promote his PD group from time to time, they had all this stuff pretty well hashed out. There's probably a few things that I would've done differently if I wrote a rulebook, but most of their stuff made good sense.

Falling deaths would have to be addressed. I would probably lean toward death by misadventure is still death. I think the whole point is to add a sense of gravity to the whole existence. Not only do you have to worry about that next goblin ending all your hard work with an ill-timed root, but you have to worry about whether you can jump that gap, or if you'll come up short and leave all your hard work in a messy smatter on the rocks below.

Lag and other various computer-issue based deaths would have to get a pass, RL emergencies as well. But I think most normal, run-of-play deaths would need to count.

As far as high-risk areas like GB, I think I'd be OK with making exceptions there, but we still need to have penalties of some sort. Maybe you lose all your gear or something (at the end of the run obviously - no point in throwing away the coordination it'll take to get everyone together for a GB run by throwing out everyone's gear after the 1st wipe). Since we'd be somewhat poor (not having capped mains to lean on), we wouldn't be able to just buy everyone nice crafted stuff all the time, so losing all your gear would mean having to get by w/ cheap stuff until you could re-outfit from quests. And if you had a really good quest-reward item at the time, that'd be gone for good.

Originally Posted by Dom12

Lag and other various computer-issue based deaths would have to get a pass, RL emergencies as well. But I think most normal, run-of-play deaths would need to count.

As far as high-risk areas like GB, I think I'd be OK with making exceptions there, but we still need to have penalties of some sort.

Personally, I think any exceptions (save possibly certain scripted events) are a bad idea. Sure, lag-/internet-/computer-related deaths suck, but they shouldn't be so common that it's an issue. Making exceptions for tough instances is sorta circumventing the whole reason for permadeath anyways. Plus, the simpler you keep the rules, the harder it will be for people to try to weasel around them. Defeated = dead is pretty hard to fudge.

Originally Posted by CWood

Personally, I think any exceptions (save possibly certain scripted events) are a bad idea. Sure, lag-/internet-/computer-related deaths suck, but they shouldn't be so common that it's an issue. Making exceptions for tough instances is sorta circumventing the whole reason for permadeath anyways. Plus, the simpler you keep the rules, the harder it will be for people to try to weasel around them. Defeated = dead is pretty hard to fudge.

You gonna come out of retirement for this??

In part, I agree, but if that were the case, would you even try things like GB? I guess that's one of the things you have to decide, do you want to be totally strict, or be a bit looser on the death thing but with alternative penalties? I could easily argue either side of either option..


EDIT (more)..

I wouldn't say they're common, but my PC is not exactly 100% stable, and I've locked up in the middle of fighting several times. I can only recall one actual lag death, and only one RL emergency related death. But while all those can be frustrating and at times, embarrassing, in normal play. I'd be pretty pissed if I had to throw away a character I'd put a decent amount of time on just cause my computer puked.

Since there's nothing in the game to enforce any type of PD play, it's gotta be based on the honor system. If someone joins, it's really up to them to not cheat our little mini-game. If you die on a group run, obviously everyone knows about it and it's gonna be tough to get out of it, but if you die when no one's looking, it's up to you to honor that. If people want to try to weasel out of death, they shouldn't be doing PD to begin with.

You're right, the simpler the rules, the better, but as long as they're clear, I think a somewhat more complex rule set is fine.

Here are some rules based on what has been stated here already.

1) No gifts from established characters, we would all or mostly be on a server that we are unfamiliar with and would have to deal with the gear/trait deficiency by being awesome.

2) This is Permadeath. If you are defeated, you take the time to mail your stuff (coin, pots scrolls) to an alt, or kinnie, log out and delete that character... if you have become attached to that character, you can simply pull him/her from the kin, but he/she will be dead to us and subject to great mocking.

3) This is Permadeath. However, LagWallofDoom and scripted events are not death, they are plot devices.

4) If you die during an instance run, you may petition the Gods (everyone else present during an instance run) for the chance for a rez, then you have a 20% chance (/roll with a result of 80 or better) to either get a rez or release and continue the instance run.

What do you guys think of that? Should I incorporate the word "ballslapingest" in there somewhere?

You know what...if this is Hardcore rules, then I'm in. However, I have to work this into my RK PvP and Hun**** raiding schedule. What are the planned days and times for this? And which server?

My normal play time is evenings PST and all weekend.

I will roll a Champion.

I have another player that is interested as well who will roll a Captain.

One more thing...Death is death. If someone dies, it's game over. No option for rez or chance roll. We truly must survive by being awesome, interwebz connection included.

If it turns to Nimrodel I will gladly roll a Captain and even if he dies Ill keep him for later use in the game

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Here are some rules based on what has been stated here already.

1) No gifts from established characters, we would all or mostly be on a server that we are unfamiliar with and would have to deal with the gear/trait deficiency by being awesome.

Anyone else here watch "How I Met Your Mother" (great show btw)? That's definitely a Barney Stinson-esque line right there..

2) This is Permadeath. If you are defeated, you take the time to mail your stuff (coin, pots scrolls) to an alt, or kinnie, log out and delete that character... if you have become attached to that character, you can simply pull him/her from the kin, but he/she will be dead to us and subject to great mocking.

So we loot our own dead? How miraculous of us..

3) This is Permadeath. However, LagWallofDoom and scripted events are not death, they are plot devices.

Based on my own experiences and RL situation, I'd vote to exempt lag/crashes, wall of doom, scripted events and the less easy to define RL emergencies. It'll be quite a while before the scripted stuff will come into play, but the comp crash issue is something that, unfortunately, is all too common for me right now. I'm not saying that I wouldn't join without that exception in place, but after it happened once, I'd probably have a hard time continuing. Not to mention, what if I'm tanking GB and my comp dies? Suddenly we're looking at a wipe. 6 characters dead because of a non-game issue. I feel bad about the inconvenience to the rest of the group when that happens in a normal situation, but that'd just be a horrible feeling if (perma)death were on the line. I am gonna be doing a fresh windows install very soon tho, so hopefully the stability issues I'm having currently go away.

4) If you die during an instance run, you may petition the Gods (everyone else present during an instance run) for the chance for a rez, then you have a 20% chance (/roll with a result of 80 or better) to either get a rez or release and continue the instance run.

On the instance runs, I think I'd tend to either fall to Halvr's & Overt's side of the argument (defeat=death) or go the other way and exempt deaths in certain instances with the replacement of some large penalties. The >80 roll thing just doesn't seem right.

5) any thoughts on the kin size question? I don't know if we should limit it to 6, but I think we should get six at the minimum. Should we expand the discussion beyond the hunter forums? Should we see if any others from our respective kins wants to join?

What do you guys think of that? Should I incorporate the word "ballslapingest" in there somewhere?

eh, it's a preliminary draft, but it's looking inevitable that "ballslapingest" is gonna have to find a spot in the final version one way or the other.

Originally Posted by Overtone

You know what...if this is Hardcore rules, then I'm in. However, I have to work this into my RK PvP and Hun**** raiding schedule. What are the planned days and times for this? And which server?

My normal play time is evenings PST and all weekend.

Times haven't really been worked out.. currently I'd probably be able to do an hour or two most Monday & Tuesday evenings (roughly 8-9p ish central) & a long run Friday nights (10p-2a ish) if my kin wasn't active that week (which is somewhat common lately, but wouldn't be counted on).

SB mentioned Vilya (probably just picked one that none of us that have responded have a character on).

I will roll a Champion.

I have another player that is interested as well who will roll a Captain.

One more thing...Death is death. If someone dies, it's game over. No option for rez or chance roll. We truly must survive by being awesome, interwebz connection included.

I'm not too concerned about my interwebz connection, it's been pretty awesome. But the other issues I've mentioned (mostly computer crashes) are much more of a concern. Unfortunately, being awesome in that category takes more cash flow than I can muster right now. I'm just working on getting from "good enough to get by" to "pretty good".

Here are some rules based on what has been stated here already. V.2

1) No gifts from established characters, we would all or mostly be on a server that we are unfamiliar with and would have to deal with the gear/trait deficiency by being awesome.

2) This is Permadeath. If you are defeated, you take the time to mail your stuff (coin, pots scrolls) to an alt, or kinnie, log out and delete that character... if you have become attached to that character, you can simply pull him/her from the kin, but he/she will be dead to us and subject to great mocking.

3) This is Permadeath. However, LagWallofDoom and scripted events are not death, they are plot devices.

4) This is Permadeath. If you die during an instance run, the group loots you.

A big part of the point in my mind is to run the instances and group areas on level (ie when the mobs are not green or gray) but to do so as a group and really commit to succeeding or failing together. The higher the level, the higher the stakes. Dol Dinen and Fornost have the potential to be epic disasters without crit-crafted gear and a conscious effort put into grinding traits. Its the most ballslappingest hardcore scenario that I can think of without being arbitrarily difficult.


What do you all think of that? Anything to add... subtract... its it agreeable?

Things that need to be decided on:

1) Kin Name (preferably something really humorous)

2) Server (preferably one that the majority do not have established characters on)

3) Kin Leader... The Kin leader (in my mind) would be a character on the server that would not actually Participate in the instance runs, but exist to help keep the kin open, re-invite people after wipe/rerolls and otherwise act as a Mule/Bank

4) Scheduling and organization: I really see this as a side project, something to do other than the actual end game content (which I personally am not participating in anyway). We will have to decide on times where we are definitely running instances and will have to implement a level of clerical organization that will compliment that... and possibly borrow a channel in somebodies vent server (I very much dislike in game voice.)

Rules are good by me. I'm not rerolling if Turbine loses a hamster and it gets me killed but otherwise it's fair game. We will be awesome enough to overcome anything besides server/client issues so I'm not worried.

Kin Size: I'm fine with more than 6 so long as it's people that won't grab the hem if my pants as they slide in to the abyss.

I'll go roll a lowbie on Vilya if that's were everyone wants to start. I bet I can get an extra good player or two involved as well, I'll ask when I see them.

Originally Posted by Dom12

You gonna come out of retirement for this?

Considering it, but I probably won't. It'd be a blast to run with you guys, and the permadeath thing is right up my alley, but I'm finally in a position to enjoy FFXI (rather than just grinding out subjobs that I have no interest in), and don't think I'll be able to pull myself away from it. I'm having a hard enough time getting a build/tune done for a Forza 3 competetion, and I love me some racing games.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

1) Kin Name (preferably something really humorous)

How about Dead Man's Party? Surprise! You're Dead!, maybe?

That's just evil dude... making me choose between Boingo and Faith No More.

Possible Kinship Names :

Bloodbath and Beyond
I Dropped My Main for This
Gamer Chicks

Once a kin, leader, and server are confirmed, I'd like to join up. Sounds like fun!

I would of course be happily to accept in my honor as a Kinship Name:

Street Fighter Rejects
Dragonballz (notice the play on title their right?)
Pariah's Awesome HADUKEN Squad
HADUKEN THIS
POOR MUTANT (or the actual spelling of Ken/Ryu uppercut)

Should we start declaring classes? Like I said earlier, guard will probably be my pick.

I've never done a kin that wasn't RL friends, seems you need a forum/website separate from this.. anyone have know of something we could use? While it almost seems fitting to just do this here, since it seems half of the people here are around more for the chatter with the hunter content being a secondary concern (I mean, geeze, some people haven't even played in nearly a year but still probably stay in the top-10 posters on the hunter forum ), we probably shouldn't take over the hunter forum w/ this.

Oh, and do we have a final call on which server? Vilya's the only place that's been mentioned, is that where we're going?

I'll start getting things set up for Guild Portal site tomorrow once we can decide on a kin name. Vilya seems like a good candidate so if anyone wants to start creating characters, they can go right ahead. I'll poke around to see if anyone is willing to donate a vent channel, but if not, in-game will suffice.

I'll go ahead and start the kin tomorrow evening once a kin name has been decided on and post the name of the character to send the plz invite tells. I plan on bumping everyone to officer ASAP just so new invites and reinvites can go smoothly and turning over leadership if anyone objects to my power tripping nonsense.

Other than that, I think that I will call Minnie, just so we have those first two bases covered, but I will gladly roll with something else should somebody else be overcome with a severe craving to heal.

Hmm, we've got a tank, healer, Champ, and Captain so far do we? I'll roll up either ranged damage (probably RK) or some CC/Debuff.

Kin Names:

Originally Posted by The Pariah

Street Fighter Rejects
Dragonballz (notice the play on title their right?)
Pariah's Awesome HADUKEN Squad
HADUKEN THIS
POOR MUTANT (or the actual spelling of Ken/Ryu uppercut)

I stand by my ideas . Well except a few but thats a rarity.

If yah all pick Nimrodel I can keep the Captain after its untimely death :P. Course if we pick any other server its all good.

Dead Men Walkin'
Overcome via Awesome
Don't Rez Me Bro
No Mulligans
Break from Endgame
Crack Suicide Squad

The last one is my favorite.

Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken

Dead Men Walkin'
Overcome via Awesome
Don't Rez Me Bro
No Mulligans
Break from Endgame
Crack Suicide Squad

The last one is my favorite.

I like No Mulligans
Something with Awesome in it would be good.. another idea: Gettin' By On Awesome

Sorry Pariah, I can't support any SF or DBz names..

Reekin' of Awesome

I will start a Champ on Vilya then. I have another player rolling a Captain as well.

Prospective Kin names:

Hardcore Hadukens
Awesome Sauce

Also think I know of a vent that we can use. But would have to get the proper permission.

And just throwing my own ideas out there:

Slouching Towards Bethlehem (a hippie reference and apocalypse reference in one go... will probably be filtered)

Running Towards the Light

Suicidal Tendencies

For Great Justice (first meme ever)

Chasin' Sauron with a Spork