Thread: Question about Nazgûl

Originally Posted by Vilnas

I need to check the book and don't have access to it right now, but didn't Tolkien explore the issue of Frodo's sword somewhat in the Letters? I seem to recall that he felt it was significant to the nazgul that it was a "Westernesse make" blade (to use Lotro parlance), which would support Cutholen's posts above.

On the other hand, I don't think the nazgul would have seen that sword and immediately concluded that Frodo had defeated a barrow wight in order to possess it. After all, Orcrist and Glamdring (one of which was stated to have belonged to Turgon, if I recall) came out of a troll hole. Apparently these kinds of weapons get around - which makes me feel better about all those rewards the Lotro quest NPC's dole out for scaring off half a dozen wild animals. I also note that Bilbo was awarded Sting (another ancient blade) without having done anything useful to defeat the trolls.

All of which is to say that I don't think we can properly conclude that the nazgul necessarily had any respect to for Frodo as a dangerous individual when he drew his sword, but I do think Tolkien gave some indication in the letters (in support of the implication in the main text) that the blade itself gave the nazgul pause (as argued by Cutholen with his .357 magnum example).

Well, if you think about it, who in that day made Westernesse blades? I mean the real deal, like something you'd find in the ancient barrows of the Northern Kingdom? Nobody, I'm guessing. Their like probably hadn't been made in many centuries. And since the fall of Sauron, the WK had been the arch-enemy of the Men of Westernesse, so their blades likely would have been made to fight against him and his warriors. And what do the Nazgul fear (besides water)? Fire. And so it makes sense that a blade of Numenorean make, crafted and infused with virtue specifically for the hurt of the Nazgul, would appear like a fire-brand, and probably burn like one too if wounded by it. So if that's the case, when Frodo unsheathed his Numenorean blade, the WK saw it as a fire-brand, and recoiled from it, or at least was thrown off balance for a moment.

The next logical thought the WK might have, upon seeing such a blade, is:
"What the...where in Middle-earth did this little Shire-rat get such a blade?? Ah-the ruined kingdom, of the North (which *I* ruined, heh-heh). Somehow this little rat weasled his way into and out of one of MY barrows--and passed one of my deadly wights... Hmm...there's more to this little rat than meets the undead-eye..."

That too would give him pause. PLUS, as if that wasn't enough, this little rat was also wielding the One Ring of Power! Again, he'd been uttering a "holey-schneike! This runt can also weild the One?!" That thought too might throw him off balance. (Maybe that would explain how he got passed or defeated a barrow-wight...? If so, that would make one be hesitant to try to defeat such a foe.)

If you consider the event in that light, then it makes a lot more sense why the WK, seeing that blade, might have retreated at that moment. That's not to mention this bright-eyed and bright-browed Man wielding two fire-brands himself...

Originally Posted by Vilnas

I need to check the book and don't have access to it right now, but didn't Tolkien explore the issue of Frodo's sword somewhat in the Letters? I seem to recall that he felt it was significant to the nazgul that it was a "Westernesse make" blade (to use Lotro parlance), which would support Cutholen's posts above.

I always agreed that it was so. I pointed out that Cutholen's posts both cited this as an insubstantial factor in #5 (strategic, not fear of the sword) and simultaneously worth mentioning in #2(a .357 magnum). No need to check, it was already quoted earlier in the thread that it was in fact a westernesse blade that was a bane to the nazgul.

Originally Posted by Vilnas

On the other hand, I don't think the nazgul would have seen that sword and immediately concluded that Frodo had defeated a barrow wight in order to possess it. After all, Orcrist and Glamdring (one of which was stated to have belonged to Turgon, if I recall) came out of a troll hole. Apparently these kinds of weapons get around - which makes me feel better about all those rewards the Lotro quest NPC's dole out for scaring off half a dozen wild animals. I also note that Bilbo was awarded Sting (another ancient blade) without having done anything useful to defeat the trolls.

All of which is to say that I don't think we can properly conclude that the nazgul necessarily had any respect to for Frodo as a dangerous individual when he drew his sword, but I do think Tolkien gave some indication in the letters (in support of the implication in the main text) that the blade itself gave the nazgul pause (as argued by Cutholen with his .357 magnum example).

The blade was a force in and of itself, yes, but it was also weilded by the wearer of the One Ring who is showing a will and resistance of his own all fo a sudden. It would be 'unwise' to discount Frodo's resolve entirely.

jimmyboy131 seems to agree:
The next logical thought the WK might have, upon seeing such a blade, is:
"What the...where in Middle-earth did this little Shire-rat get such a blade?? Ah-the ruined kingdom, of the North (which *I* ruined, heh-heh). Somehow this little rat weasled his way into and out of one of MY barrows--and passed one of my deadly wights... Hmm...there's more to this little rat than meets the undead-eye..."

Originally Posted by aleczander

The blade was a force in and of itself, yes, but it was also weilded by the wearer of the One Ring who is showing a will and resistance of his own all fo a sudden. It would be 'unwise' to discount Frodo's resolve entirely.

jimmyboy131 seems to agree:
The next logical thought the WK might have, upon seeing such a blade, is:
"What the...where in Middle-earth did this little Shire-rat get such a blade?? Ah-the ruined kingdom, of the North (which *I* ruined, heh-heh). Somehow this little rat weasled his way into and out of one of MY barrows--and passed one of my deadly wights... Hmm...there's more to this little rat than meets the undead-eye..."

I guess we have come full circle then and appear to be in general agreement. I went on and on (no doubt far longer than anyone was interested in) a few pages back about my theory as to why the defiance of the Ring-bearer was in fact THE critical factor in the Witch King's decision to withdraw from Weathertop, rather than using every means available to seize the Ring right then and there.

Originally Posted by Vilnas

I guess we have come full circle then and appear to be in general agreement. I went on and on (no doubt far longer than anyone was interested in) a few pages back about my theory as to why the defiance of the Ring-bearer was in fact THE critical factor in the Witch King's decision to withdraw from Weathertop, rather than using every means available to seize the Ring right then and there.

If you're the one who first posted the ideas here about the Ring-bearer being able to to intimidate the WK, and the idea about the WK being hesitant because of the firey Numenorean blade, then props to you. I hadn't really given either of those ideas any thought, but now they make a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by aleczander

The v formation/wedge is new, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the point you were discussing: were the two nazgul halted by fear/unease from the ring or from the sword and resistance.
Saying there was no fear by offering a theory about a v formation kinda side steps the issue in question. However, it is a nice theory and relevant in its own right.

I don't think it side steps the issue. It shows, I believe, that fear is not the only reasonable explanation of why two of the Nazgul halted. That being the case, that they halted is not by itself evidence of fear. It is at most, evidence of fear and/or prior tactical planning by the Nazgul. As such, it is then up to the reader how they interpret it, and neither interpretation is "right" or "wrong" in the absence of clear disamiguation by the Professor.

Having said that, that the Witch-king was afraid, and therefore presumably, the lesser Nazgul has been directly confirmed by the Professor, so that claim does not need to stand on the ambiguos evidence from the book. (You could treat that confirmation as the disambiguation you needed, but I again think you would be over interpretting )

2nd, in the retreat, what I was essentially point out it that fear was a factor.
I didn't say it was the predominant factor.
I also wouldn't say that strategy was the only motivation.

I just realized while reading your points, that someone could be confused by considering both #2 and #5 simultaneously.

Let me elaborate: There were several factors probably involved in the retreat (some we derive from Tolkien's letters, some from the books, others from deductive reasoning based on lore)
Fear was one of the factors. I will not dismiss fear when we have a quote such as : "Desparate, Frodo drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand. Two of the figures halted."

Yes, the WK had much to think about. The unexpected resistance was something, and since there was lots of ground to cover between there and Rivendell, and thus lots of time for another ambush, the 'tactial' retreat was justified. I was thinking however, that the retreat would have been completely unnecessary had the WK and other Nazgul not been surprised (and maybe a LITTLE unnerved) by frodo's and aragorn's resistance.
Basically, motivating factors were: perceived advantage lost, fear and uncertainty from resistance and barrow-blade and fire/light, perceived advantage gained from stabbing with morgul blade to create a better ambush scenario later down the road.

It appears that we are in essential agreement. The Witch-king was in "doubt and fear" (Tolkien's words), so he did not press his attack; but only because he was confident that he would be able to secure the Ring in less risky circumstances later. His fear, however, was not panic, so before retreating he ensured that he had stabbed the ring bearer with his morgul blade. This, he thought, would bring the ring bearer under his command within a week or so, thus ensuring (to his mind) that he would gain the Ring later with little or no risk.

Thankyou for pointing out the possible confusion from my summary.

Originally Posted by Vilnas

I guess we have come full circle then and appear to be in general agreement. I went on and on (no doubt far longer than anyone was interested in) a few pages back about my theory as to why the defiance of the Ring-bearer was in fact THE critical factor in the Witch King's decision to withdraw from Weathertop, rather than using every means available to seize the Ring right then and there.

I, for one, was fascinated by your theory; which I had never considered. It was a theory I needed to immediately incorporate into my thinking, so thankyou.

Originally Posted by bonas1999

P.S. If you can not do it from an old ring, what prevents the crafting of new rings with this quality?

The level cap that was introduced after Celebrimbors death probably stops access to these higher tiers of crafting. If as has been postulated that the invisability function of a ring confers wraithdom upon its wearer an Celebrimbor became aware of this its unlikely he would have passed on any ring making techniques to any students, though if he was aware he might have tried to destroy the 16 rings that were captured by Sauron in Eregion, he had a few years to act on this.

I think Tolkien states in the Hobbit that rings of invisability were once more common so maybe it was possible to craft non harmful rings but no jeweler had the skill or knowledge. Consider japanese swords, many say that koto blades 9th to 13th century were superior to the shinto blades that came after them and that the skills and techniques used to produce them were lost and never replicated, perhaps a similar situation existed with ringmaking.

Celbrimbor could be regarded like Openheimer having enabled the technology that helped Sauron dominated middle earth would mean the elves and agent of Sauron might actively attempt to prevent anyone from rediscovering these secrets in ways nuclear technology is protected today.

Thanks for the debate Cutholen, Vilnas, Jimmybos131 and everyone! It has made me reapply my old habit of reading LOTR and Silmarillion every 6months!

I am just reading the newly published "The Children of Hurin" (btw, how do you 'type' those odd characters for Tolkien names?). I was wondering if anyone has heard anything about the Tolkien estate possibly publishing individual books of "Beren and Luthien" and "The Fall of Gondolin" ?

Anyway, i agree with the theory about lost knowledge - reminds me of the stories about Masamune and Murasame and their lost knowledge.

Also, I 'bet' that Saruman could probably have made a lesser ring of invisibility, but never tried as his goal was to make a ring of domination.

Aleczander, to type the different characters, if you're using Window$ you can go to your Start button, Programs, Accessories, System Tools, then pick the Character Map. That will give you the keyboard short cuts to use the various characters.

Originally Posted by aleczander

I am just reading the newly published "The Children of Hurin" (btw, how do you 'type' those odd characters for Tolkien names?). I was wondering if anyone has heard anything about the Tolkien estate possibly publishing individual books of "Beren and Luthien" and "The Fall of Gondolin" ?

My cynical part says that they don't need to be republishing individual stories like that. It's like with Star Wars. For a while Lucas was repackaging and reselling the Star Wars movies every year. The "Special Edition". "Special Edition Widescreen", "SE WS with bonus features" "SE WS w/bonus plus original Theatrical release", etc, etc. I'd really hate to see the same sort of thing with Middle-earth stories. Go to a used book store today and you'll see fifteen different styles of LOTR books. Same story, fifteen different packages. Expand that to the individual stories from the Sil, Unfinished Tales, not to mention the History of Middle-earth volumes. Could be a nightmare!

Now on the other hand, maybe it would be more accessible to people if certain longer stories were separated, like with Children of Hurin, but still I'd hate to see the marketers get their greedy, soul-less hands all over this stuff.

I totally agree with the marketing ****. I feel that "The Children of Húrin" was different, because Chris took all his tedious notes out, and presented the text in such a way as to make the story linear and accessible by any reader, prior knowledge of ME or no. I look forward to an independent and concise telling of "The Fall of Gondolin" and "Beren and Lúthien"

Are there any shortcuts or ways of programming the more commonly used symbols/keys?

It's a couple pages back now, but I wanted to comment on the Elves awareness of the Ring Poem and the creation of the One Ring.

It is important to remember that the Elves forged all the rings of power, save the One. For most of them, they had the direct aid of 'Annatar' - Sauron in disguise - and so he secretly was able to influence their construction such that he would later be able to gain dominion over them.

In modern terms we could say that Sauron/Annatar had direct access to the 'programming code' of these rings, and inserted his own backdoor vulnerabilities into them to seize control of them at a later date.

The three Elven rings however, were made without Sauron's direct help, as Celebrimbor did not fully trust him - unfortunately, they were still made with some knowledge and information provided by Sauron, and so he was still able to influence them.

In modern terms we could say that Celebrimbor incorporated code libraries that were at least partly of Sauron's making. So while Sauron had no built in backdoor access to seize direct control of those rings, he did have an in-depth knowledge of their potential vulnerabilities and exploits through which to attack them.

Then of course, Sauron forged the One Ring, designed to amplify his own power and to tap into, draw upon and mentally dominate the bearers of all the others.

When he cast his spells during the forging of the One Ring, the Elves were knowledgeable enough to hear and recognize this attack for what it was, and cut themselves off from Sauron's attempt to seize control of their rings.

Given the telepathic nature of the One Ring's control over the others, it is likely that the Elvish ring-bearers actually heard the words of the final binding spells being cast before they cut off contact and hid from him, and from the words of that spell the poem was written at greater length as they came to understand fully what had happened.

There is no reason for the Elves not to incorporate those words into their poem. For them it would have been a particularly traumatic event, worthy of accurate remembrance despite its tragic meaning.

It's also possible that the entire poem is of Sauron's writing - but given its phrasing I kind of doubt that.

Originally Posted by Vastin

...

Given the telepathic nature of the One Ring's control over the others, it is likely that the Elvish ring-bearers actually heard the words of the final binding spells being cast before they cut off contact and hid from him, and from the words of that spell the poem was written at greater length as they came to understand fully what had happened.

There is no reason for the Elves not to incorporate those words into their poem. For them it would have been a particularly traumatic event, worthy of accurate remembrance despite its tragic meaning.
...

Thanks for the analysis Vastin.... I find it very plausible.

Poetry is in it's essence is an art form using words to convey meaning and emotion, often in an ambiguous or ironic way and at the same time perhaps deliver several layers of meaning.

I particularly like this idea that the words of the spell that Sauron used were developed into a poem by an elvish artist.

That's what I'm talking about! Maybe turbine could 'create' the elven poet for a 'session play' later on?

Originally Posted by aleczander

Are there any shortcuts or ways of programming the more commonly used symbols/keys?

All characters have an Alt shortcut, wherein you press the Alt key, then type in a four-digit number, which represents that character.

For example, you can type { using the { key, or you can type in Alt + 0123 on your number keypad. Or I'm sure if you have a programmable keyboard you could program the Alt codes into those keys.

Here's a good reference:
http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codealt.html

Originally Posted by jimmyboy131

All characters have an Alt shortcut, wherein you press the Alt key, then type in a four-digit number, which represents that character.

For example, you can type { using the { key, or you can type in Alt + 0123 on your number keypad. Or I'm sure if you have a programmable keyboard you could program the Alt codes into those keys.

Here's a good reference:
http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/i...s/codealt.html

Thanks! need to sticky that...

Vastin and Berephon, thank you very much for your contributions to the thread and for your efforts on the game generally. If this wasn't such a good LotR game, we wouldn't have such a wonderful collection of Tolkien fans posting in this best of sub-forums.

Originally Posted by aleczander

Thanks! need to sticky that...

You're welcome, dude.

First off, fascinating thread. It's kept me up til 1 AM reading. I have to do a minor thread necro to comment on the issue from earlier in the thread RE the WK at Weathertop:

Originally Posted by Vilnas

I think it does not support my theory particularly (which is premised on the relationship of the nazgul to the One Ring), but rather the notion that the WK was acting out of doubt and hesitation. For my part, I just could never get my mind around the concept that a "power" of the WK's stature would have faltered from mere doubt when the Ring was literally within his grasp. Consider that the WK stabbed Frodo AFTER Frodo called upon Elbereth and brandished his enchanted blade. If the WK was prepared to close with Frodo at that point (despite his sudden doubt), I struggle to see how he could then fail to conclude the matter once and for all given that he actually had Frodo under his knife and the Ring there for the taking. For me, there has to be an additional factor at play, which I have described above.

I had to a bit of research to double check, but I believe that the Nine were tasked by Sauron to not only recover the One Ring, but also the Ring-bearer.

Originally Posted by Book 2, Chapter 1 "Many Meetings"

'What would they have done to me?' asked Frodo. 'What were the Riders trying to do?'
'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.' [Gandalf speaking]

I don't think that the WK stabbed Frodo as a backup plan. Sauron, it seems, wanted to punish the insolent little rat-folk for daring to hold his Ring. It's indicated earlier in the same chapter that the splinter left by the Morgul-blade was working inwards towards Frodo's heart, causing his condition to worsen until the splinter was removed. That says to me that had the WK been able to actually stab Frodo through the heart he would have been overcome nearly immediately. It makes sense, after all. Cruelty is inherent to the Dark Lord, and why would he have any reason to believe that a pathetic, weak creature like a Hobbit could offer the slightest resistance to the WK?

So that plan went wrong. But even so, why didn't the WK at least take the Ring rather than risking it slipping from his grasp? The summary of what happened given earlier in the thread is slightly incorrect. The WK didn't hesitate, then strike at Frodo after he tried to resist - several events happened simultaneously:

1. Frodo resists the WK, wielding a blade of Westernesse and invoking the name of Elbereth. This actually causes the WK's strike to miss Frodo's heart.
2. Aragorn attacks with fire.
3. Frodo summons the will to take off the Ring.

Let's take a look at the passage:

Originally Posted by Book 1, Chapter 11 "A Knife in the Dark"

[Frodo] shut his eyes and struggled for a while; but resistance became unbearable, and at last he slowly drew out the chain, and slipped the Ring on the forefinger of his left hand.
[...]
[The Witch King] sprang forward and bore down on Frodo.
At that moment Frodo threw himself forward on the ground, and he heard himself crying aloud: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy. A shrill cry rang out in the night; and he felt a pain like a dart of poisoned ice pierce his left shoulder. Even as he swooned he caught, as through a swirling mist, a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand. With a last effort Frodo, dropping his sword, slipped the Ring from his finger and closed his right hand tight upon it.

So the initial plan failed, and the Nazgûl are being resisted, but Frodo is wounded. They could most likely fight and retrieve the Ring immediately, but why risk a fight when your mission is already accomplished? By their experience (as relayed by Gandalf) the small splinter in Frodo should overwhelm almost anyone else "quickly". Step back, let the blade do its work, and in a matter of days Frodo will be at their command. They've no experience with Hobbits to tell them otherwise.

But why is it important that Frodo took the Ring off? If we go back to "Many Meetings", Gandalf tells us:

Originally Posted by Book 2, Chapter 1 "Many Meetings"

'You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for the then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.'

The meaning of "seize" can probably be debated here. I doubt that Gandalf means that the Nazgûl are incapable of physically touching Frodo when he's not wearing the Ring; most likely wearing it makes it easier for them to pull one fully into the wraith-world.

Personally, I don't think that's the only reason that taking off the Ring is significant. It kind of ties in to Vilnas' original idea about the power of the Ring, albeit in a different manner. It's getting really late now and I can't be arsed to find the quote, but I know at some point Gandalf mentions how the initial actions of the Ring-bearers influenced how much of a hold the Ring had on them: Sméagol started with murder, Bilbo started with mercy. Now granted, Frodo has technically been a Ring-bearer for some years at this point. However, Weathertop is the first time that Frodo has actually set the Ring on his finger. And what are his first actions as a full-fledged Ring-bearer? He summons the will to strike at the WK, and the will to overcome the "spell" that caused him to put on the Ring. That's gotta be significant.

Anyway, I think putting all of that together it makes a fairly satisfying explanation for the events on Weathertop. Satisfying enough for tonight at least - it's now 2 AM, must sleep!