My main just went over 1100 gp, so I need to find lore support for acquisitiveness.
Ignoring the obvious dragons, who gave their main attention to gathering wealth?
Ofc I'm not just gathering wealth for wealth's sake... Dang, what's the quote? I gather it for what it will buy... empowerment scrolls, Draigoch scales, WSotEK...
[Found the quote from Faramir: "... I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend..." I was afraid for a moment that I was remembering something from the movie that Tolkien hadn't written!
I do not love the bright gold for its lustre, nor the jewels for their colour, nor the mithril for its strength. I love only that which they buy.]
Dwarves seem like too easy a trap answer, but I'll throw it out there, just in case. ^_^
That would seem to make sense generically, but I'd like a specific example rather than a general race.
I'm thinking of one Man, but in keeping with the modern tendency to give credit to any (specific) answer that matches the criterion, I'll accept any specific dwarf you provide who's just in it for the profit.
No other guesses? I particularly liked this question because I recently stumbled across the applicable nugget in a re-read. I had either forgotten or never noticed the explanation in the text.
Your answer must be as specific as possible within the limitations of the canon texts.
I believe Sauton was under the guise of the Necromancer when he was ousted from Dol Guldur. The attack occurred when Bilbo and the dwarves were on the Quest of Erebor. Gandalf and other members of the White Council attacked the fortress but Sauron fled to Mordor.
The Crimson Burglar Squad - First you see Red...Then you are dead.
I believe Sauton was under the guise of the Necromancer when he was ousted from Dol Guldur. The attack occurred when Bilbo and the dwarves were on the Quest of Erebor. Gandalf and other members of the White Council attacked the fortress but Sauron fled to Mordor.
Yes, that is all true. But the question at hand is to state how Sauron was driven out with as much specificity as the canon texts permit us. One canon text actually does provide a key detail on how that was accomplished beyond what you just described.
Yes, that is all true. But the question at hand is to state how Sauron was driven out with as much specificity as the canon texts permit us. One canon text actually does provide a key detail on how that was accomplished beyond what you just described.
Oooh you're looking for specific details of the battle then. I gotcha! Hmm...I can't recall where they were described off the top of my head. Maybe in Unfinished Tales or in the appendices? I'll have to go check my books again....
The Crimson Burglar Squad - First you see Red...Then you are dead.
Unfinished Tales is off limits for the riddle threads unless specifically called out. We are supposed to limit ourselves to the "canon" texts (LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion) to keep things accessible to the broader group that doesn't necessarily have the other stuff. So no need to go scour UT.
I will give you a break and say that it isn't in the RotK appendices either (which are otherwise fair game for the riddle threads).
Oh well, if you insist I suppose I can try to come up with something off the top of my head....
So during the Council of Elrond Gandalf says something along the lines of "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood....Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee...." which bam basically already said. Then a little later during his account Gandalf says "But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur..."
Would that be more along the lines of what you were looking for Vilnas?
Last edited by Itharas; Jun 01 2012 at 02:44 AM.
Well, I suppose you could always say "flame resistant sunglasses" if you prefer that to "shoes"
Oh well, if you insist I suppose I can try to come up with something off the top of my head....
So during the Council of Elrond Gandalf says something along the lines of "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood....Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee...." which bam basically already said. Then a little later during his account Gandalf says "But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur..."
Would that be more along the lines of what you were looking for Vilnas?
If that's what he's looking for, I'm going to be kicking myself. I'm going through my yearly reread right now and I passed over that passage as not specific enough.
Sorry Pyro, that was in fact what I was looking for. As far as I can tell it is the most specific reference in the texts for how Sauron was driven out.
With that out of the way, what do you all suppose that means exactly? Was it the same "blasting fire" that Saruman used to breach Helms Deep?
If not, then how? Given everything I know about JRRT and Middle-earth, I don't think the White Council joined hands in a magic circle. On the other hand, we have no indication that the White Council was supported by foot soldiers out of Lothlorien and Imladris. Yet it is hard to imagine that the White Council merely appeared before the walls and brandished their Rings of Power at him. Perhaps a modest assault force armed with blasting fire to breach the stronghold? I recognize that Gandalf later says that Sauron anticipated them and withdrew as a feint. Yet in order for it to make any sense the White Council's action had to be in earnest and calculated as having a reasonable chance of success. After all, at that point they knew who they were up against.
At this point, I would like to restate a notion of mine that I have advanced in other threads. Sauron was not this awesome close combat juggernaut as he is sometimes depicted. The prologue to PJ's FotR was awesome, but I really don't think Sauron was like that. After all, he was defeated in combat on the only three occasions that he personally took the field (that are expressly mentioned in the texts at any rate): Huan beat him, the Numenorean force that relieved Lindon routed him and he was forced to flee in shame with a small bodyguard, and Gil-galad/Elendil/Isildur essentially slew him. In my view, Sauron's real power lay in his ability to dominate and control others, whether kings or large populations. Unless Sauron had only a token force at Dol Guldur, I feel that the White Council must have been supported by a strike force of their own. And yet we have Gandalf's statement that it was by the devices of Saruman that they drove him out. On that point, however, we have seen Saruman in action against Rohan. If Saruman had some other "wizardry" at his disposal sufficient to overcome Sauron at Dol Guldur, I think it would be safe to say he would have employed it against Theoden at Helm's Deep.
At this point, I would like to restate a notion of mine that I have advanced in other threads. Sauron was not this awesome close combat juggernaut as he is sometimes depicted.
Indeed! I think sometimes it's easy to get caught up in this notion that Sauron was this super-hiney-kickin-make-you-wee-your-pants uber bad guy. When the Maiar took mortal form their bodies could be slain. For all his power Saruman got taken out by a shank to the back.
As to what device might have been used against Sauron at Dol Guldur I totally forgot about that passage too, so I'm kickin myself a little too Pyro!
Just throwing some thoughts out, perhaps Gandalf did not know exactly what method Saruman used because he did not witness it himself, or Gandalf did see and did not approve, but kept it to himself. My first guess, would be Saruman might have used the Palantír to either misdirect Sauron, or perhaps send him a secret message. I know I've read that Sauron contacted Saruman from Mordor, but I don't recall if anything specifically said it was the first time. Maybe ya'll can help with that one.
So what do the rest of ya'll think? This is a interesting topic.
The Crimson Burglar Squad - First you see Red...Then you are dead.
Okay, so keeping in the spirit of the current conversation, (and because I'd hate to make you guys wait even longer for a new question) what other abilities was Saruman reputed to possess?
Well, I suppose you could always say "flame resistant sunglasses" if you prefer that to "shoes"
Okay, so keeping in the spirit of the current conversation, (and because I'd hate to make you guys wait even longer for a new question) what other abilities was Saruman reputed to possess?
...other than the power of his voice you mean?
The Crimson Burglar Squad - First you see Red...Then you are dead.
This one having lapsed for the moment, I will offer a temporary question until we hear back from Itharas.
According to the canon texts, when did Galadriel leave Doriath and cross the Blue Mountains? You must give two events for reference purposes. More lore monkey points will be awarded if you can answer without consulting the book.
This one having lapsed for the moment, I will offer a temporary question until we hear back from Itharas.
According to the canon texts, when did Galadriel leave Doriath and cross the Blue Mountains? You must give two events for reference purposes. More lore monkey points will be awarded if you can answer without consulting the book.
Sorry for disappearing; it's been the month from hell for me. On top of that, I completely forgot what I was trying to get at with my question, so I vote we just use Vilnas' instead and completely disregard mine entirely.
Well, I suppose you could always say "flame resistant sunglasses" if you prefer that to "shoes"
This one having lapsed for the moment, I will offer a temporary question until we hear back from Itharas.
According to the canon texts, when did Galadriel leave Doriath and cross the Blue Mountains? You must give two events for reference purposes. More lore monkey points will be awarded if you can answer without consulting the book.
Now accepting answers from lore monkeys who have refreshed their recollections by sneaking a peak at the text.
This one having lapsed for the moment, I will offer a temporary question until we hear back from Itharas.
According to the canon texts, when did Galadriel leave Doriath and cross the Blue Mountains? You must give two events for reference purposes. More lore monkey points will be awarded if you can answer without consulting the book.
Boy you are making me work my memory (books packed in storage and not available atm). OK. Thingol was slain by Dwarves after he commissioned them to remake the Nauglamir. Melian departed for Valinor after that incident, leaving Doriath open to its enemies. Dwarves from Nogrod or was it Belegost? came to take revenge and sacked Doriath. Beren and Luthien, with the aid of the Green Elves and the Ents slew the Dwarves and kept the remade Nauglamir bearing the Silmaril. Dior, their son, gathered the remnants and attempted to revive Doriath. After Beren and Luthien died, the Nauglamir was taken to Dior in Doriath. The sons of Feanor attacked Doriath, killing Dior and capturing his sons. The remnants fled to the Mouths of Sirion. Elwing escaped with the Nauglamir and carried it south. I think this is when she fled East with Celeborn and before the War of Wrath (remember Galadriel thought that the ban on return to Aman conveyed by Mandos would never be lifted if she remained in Middle-Earth), where Eonwe pronounced the renouncement of the Ban (at least to return to Eldamar) after the banishment of Morgoth.
I'll go with Bob... from an appreciative remark by a bystander to Frodo's unfortunate performance in the Pony.
Sweet job there! You are absolutely right. After Frodo finishes his first rendition of the The Man in the Moon to rousing applause, the audience calls for it again. Someone says they should fetch Bob to hear it, and that he should learn his cat the fiddle.
Boy you are making me work my memory (books packed in storage and not available atm). OK. Thingol was slain by Dwarves after he commissioned them to remake the Nauglamir. Melian departed for Valinor after that incident, leaving Doriath open to its enemies. Dwarves from Nogrod or was it Belegost? came to take revenge and sacked Doriath. Beren and Luthien, with the aid of the Green Elves and the Ents slew the Dwarves and kept the remade Nauglamir bearing the Silmaril. Dior, their son, gathered the remnants and attempted to revive Doriath. After Beren and Luthien died, the Nauglamir was taken to Dior in Doriath. The sons of Feanor attacked Doriath, killing Dior and capturing his sons. The remnants fled to the Mouths of Sirion. Elwing escaped with the Nauglamir and carried it south. I think this is when she fled East with Celeborn and before the War of Wrath (remember Galadriel thought that the ban on return to Aman conveyed by Mandos would never be lifted if she remained in Middle-Earth), where Eonwe pronounced the renouncement of the Ban (at least to return to Eldamar) after the banishment of Morgoth.
You know what's funny? It has been so long that I no longer recall the exact answer off the top of my head. I will check when I get home, but I think you are not quite correct about the timing of Galadriel's exodus. For the record, there is a clear statement in the text that gives two reference points for her departure from Doriath, and the answer is not in the Silmarillion.
Sweet job there! You are absolutely right. After Frodo finishes his first rendition of the The Man in the Moon to rousing applause, the audience calls for it again. Someone says they should fetch Bob to hear it, and that he should learn his cat the fiddle.
Cool. If it's OK to have two threads continuing at once, I'll offer this one:
Which animal and freep (race of elf, man, hobbit or dwarf), both alive during LotR, shared a name?
Strider (the pony ridden by Frodo when returning to the Shire).
And
Strider (the human ridden by guilt for being rude to the Mouth of Sauron).
Wow, lots of them! I saw this pair and was so struck by the obscurity that I didn't think long enough about the others. Not obscure enough for you, though!
This is the one I had in mind, but the Bill/Bill one was earlier, so I suggest Vilnas should go... despite getting tricky with the Toms (no good, a troll isn't an animal under the Meaning of the Act, using the usual distinction between animals and thinking beings, which I suppose though we shouldn't since Eagles at least are thinking beings. But I digress.).
Wow, lots of them! I saw this pair and was so struck by the obscurity that I didn't think long enough about the others. Not obscure enough for you, though!
I hear you. About half the time I think I have a really good obscure one the group offers 2-3 other solutions that I should have foreseen.
Originally Posted by Tuco
despite getting tricky with the Toms (no good, a troll isn't an animal under the Meaning of the Act, using the usual distinction between animals and thinking beings, which I suppose though we shouldn't since Eagles at least are thinking beings. But I digress.).
Aye, that's why I put Tom/Tom and Bill/Bill/Bill under "variations on a theme." Personally I was fondest of Fatty/Fatty. Bill/Bill is a bit of cheat since the pony was named for the man.
Alright, there is something I have been noodling over and I will introduce it here in trivia question form in hopes that it will lead to discussion after the answer is presented:
Cite a reference in the text to a dwarf settlement extant in the Third-Age that is not (i) located in the Blue Mountains, Grey Mountains or Iron Hills, and (ii) Erebor or the Moria colony.
The reference I have in mind does not explicitly satisfy those criteria, but I can make a good case for why it should. My answer is not from the appendices, but you can draw from them if you like.
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