Ulf was a man captured by either Sauron or Morgoth (sorry can't remember which) and became a werewolf.
Wow, where was that? I can't believe I don't remember the reference. In any event, I will take "werewolf," because the Similarillion clearly references them in connection with Sauron's days at Tol-in-Guarhoth.
One more to go, and of course it is the super obscure reference I am framed the question for.
Wow, where was that? I can't believe I don't remember the reference. In any event, I will take "werewolf," because the Similarillion clearly references them in connection with Sauron's days at Tol-in-Guarhoth.
One more to go, and of course it is the super obscure reference I am framed the question for.
Actually, I have to retract Ulf, seems he was turned into a werewolf and did not have the power innately. I'm dying to hear the obscure one...I've been racking my brain and searching for a reference but still nothing...anyone else have an idea?
I looked back at Gandalf's description of Durin's Bane and confirmed (to my satisfaction at least) that Gandalf was speaking in metaphor when he said that the balrog was now a thing of slime with the strength of a strangling snake. I believe Gandalf's usage here is in comparison to how he describes their fall together when he was burnt by the balrog's flames. Gandalf then describes how they hit the water and the balrog's flames were quenched. This is then followed by the statement that the balrog was now a thing of slime. I don't think the balrog actually shapeshifted there - I believe it was a contrast between the fiery balrog and the balrog wrestling with Gandalf under the water. I would be interested in the group's views on this, however.
I also looked back at the passage about Morgoth transforming into a dark cloud after his confrontation with Feanor at Formenos (I couldn't think of any other passage that describes Morgoth as a shapeshifter - let me know if you had something else in mind). While the text clearly says there that Morgoth had the power to change shape, it is in the context of a statement to the effect of "he was still a Vala and like all of them had the power to change his form or walk unseen." Fortunately for me I had stated in my question that I was excluding the Ainur generally, and I think this description rules out Morgoth as a "shapeshifter" in the sense I was getting at. On the other hand, I now feel that I have to re-examine my understanding of Sauron's powers, as it may be that he was also simply exercising an Ainur power rather than a sorcerous one. I would be interested in the group's thoughts on that as well.
In any event, for purposes of our riddle we are still short one answer. I am going to wait until the end of the day before providing another hint, although I will say that it is a single line reference in the text and as far as I am aware is never developed in any of Tolkien's other writings.
Thank you for the updates about Ulf. I had been thinking I might have to turn in my official Middle-earth lore-monkey card.
Just to be clear, even though Ulf hails from another universe, we do have werewolves in Middle-earth (at Tol-in-Gaurhoth) and that was one of the correct answers.
Apparently I read the collection called Wargs! at some point but don't remember when. From the referenced website: Also included: “Ulf’s Saga,” the story of an early Man, captured and enslaved by Sauron, transformed into a ravening werewolf in Sauron’s horde. Freed first by the powers of Luthien, then by Earendil, he becomes an outlaw with a price on his head, cast out by his own people, hunted by Sauron’s armies, but true to his first mission - the defense of Beleriand.
So while not written by Tolkien, it did take place in Middle-Earth. Yet another reason to retract it from the answers. Mea Culpa.
Apparently I read the collection called Wargs! at some point but don't remember when. From the referenced website: Also included: “Ulf’s Saga,” the story of an early Man, captured and enslaved by Sauron, transformed into a ravening werewolf in Sauron’s horde. Freed first by the powers of Luthien, then by Earendil, he becomes an outlaw with a price on his head, cast out by his own people, hunted by Sauron’s armies, but true to his first mission - the defense of Beleriand.
So while not written by Tolkien, it did take place in Middle-Earth. Yet another reason to retract it from the answers. Mea Culpa.
Well thats some coincidence. (Or is it...hmmm..). In both stories a guy named Ulf turns into a werewolf. Well, Ulf rhymes nicely with werewolf The swedish childrens story was written in 1972 and apparently that Ulf's Saga was published in 1990 so maybe mr Helms and mr Dettman had taken influence from there too.
Ok, hint time. The obscure answer is not in The Silmarillion.
Was Grimbeorn ever referred to as being able to change into a bear?
(As for my trivia question earlier: I have to confess that I knew there were more than those I thought of (Saeros, Beleg, Finduilas, Glaurung, and Nienor/Niniel) that met their end thanks to Turin, but I also wanted to see who else met their end...)
Was Grimbeorn ever referred to as being able to change into a bear?
Good question. I will try and track it down. In the meantime, I suppose I had better narrow the field even further. The answer I am looking for is in The Hobbit.
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Re: Tolkien Trivia, Revived
Originally Posted by Vilnas
I am also not including the Ainur as a general category, notwithstanding that they had the ability to clothe their spirits in a physical form of their choosing.
Originally Posted by Vilnas
The answer I am looking for is in The Hobbit.
Vilnas, can you confirm whether or not the Istari are excluded along with the rest of the Ainur?
My understanding is that the Istari have fixed mortal forms, and thus would not have the normal Ainur shapeshifting ability (at least they voluntarily abstained from using such power). So to answer your question they aren't excluded, and I would be surprised if you were able to produce an example of Istari shapeshifting.
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Re: Tolkien Trivia, Revived
Originally Posted by Vilnas
I would be surprised if you were able to produce an example of Istari shapeshifting.
There are no direct examples, but there are a few by way of implication. Unfortunately, none of the references are in The Hobbit as I thought. At any rate, these are the references I was thinking of:
Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends.
The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Ch. 2 - The Council of Elrond
'And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf?' said Gandalf. 'Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?
The Two Towers, Book III, Ch. 10 - The Voice of Saruman
Now, Gandalf refers to Saruman's changes as counterfeits, perhaps implying that he has an ability for illusion and disguise, rather than true shape-shifting.
Well, I have to say that Radagast should count. It certainly seems as if he could take various animal forms. I agree with your assessment that Saruman seemed more to be using illusions rather than true shapeshifting. Radagast was even mentioned in The Hobbit, so he qualifies under my parameters. You may take the next question or keep guessing, as you please.
Shall I narrow it further? The early chapters of The Hobbit, before they reach Rivendell.
By any chance are you looking for Bilbo's reference to the "wild were-worms in the Last Desert"?
That is it exactly! I was re-reading The Hobbit to my sons recently and came across that line again. I was astonished at the concept of wild were-worms and wished that Tolkien had developed them further.
As for the next question, I have not yet located Grimbeorn in the text, but Encyclopedia of Arda says that he had the ability to shapechange like Beorn did. Assuming that we can rely on the accuracy of EoA, that would mean that Sylux supplied an acceptable sixth answer. Since Reddhawk indicated he was leaving on vacation and might not be in a position to ask a follow up question, I think I will be bold and make the executive decision of awarding the next question to Sylux rather than asking Reddhawk and Sylux to sort it out amongst themselves.
Thank you, however, for indulging me in keeping the question open until that last nugget was produced.
I don't think there is such a passage where Grimbeorn is actually said using his shapeshifting abilities. He was part of beornings, and all of them had the ability to change into bears AFAIK.
I was gonna say Radagast too, but "master of shapes and changes of hue" isn't strong enough evidence to me that he really could change his own appearance. He could have just constructed natural things or, better, alter their colour, shape etc.
Can someone point me to the chapter where the were-worms are mentioned? I spent almost an hour today browsing through the early chapters of my finnish version of the Hobbit but could not find the passage.
Can someone point me to the chapter where the were-worms are mentioned? I spent almost an hour today browsing through the early chapters of my finnish version of the Hobbit but could not find the passage.
It is in An Unexpected Party, page 27 of my copy of the book. Bilbo is cross that the dwarves think he looks more like a grocer than a burglar, and he more or less tells them that he will do the job even if it involves walking to the East of the East and fighting the wild were-worms of the Last Desert.
It is in An Unexpected Party, page 27 of my copy of the book. Bilbo is cross that the dwarves think he looks more like a grocer than a burglar, and he more or less tells them that he will do the job even if it involves walking to the East of the East and fighting the wild were-worms of the Last Desert.
Ah ok thank you. That explains why it never caught my eye. It is translated as "hirmukäärme", where "hirmu" means mighty, horrid, or something that has both of those features, and "käärme" is a snake, or in this context, can mean a worm, drake or dragon. For some reason the ability to chage shape was lost in translation.
Ah ok thank you. That explains why it never caught my eye. It is translated as "hirmukäärme", where "hirmu" means mighty, horrid, or something that has both of those features, and "käärme" is a snake, or in this context, can mean a worm, drake or dragon. For some reason the ability to chage shape was lost in translation.
This is a good example of the absurd difficulties in trying to translate a work of this nature. Out of curiosity, does Finnish have a word that connotes a shapechanging creature? In common American English usage, the prefix "were-" when combined with any animal has come to mean a person that can change into that animal and typically also a hybrid form of that creature combining human and animal characteristics. The original concept of "werewolf" is pretty clearly tied to a lunar cycle, but in my opinion I don't think it is commonly understood that other "were-" creatures are also subject to a lunar enchantment.
Out of curiosity, does Finnish have a word that connotes a shapechanging creature?
Yes it does, sort of. Ihmissusi = were-wolf, and prefix ihmis- derives from ihminen (human). And of course susi means wolf. So, a word-to-word translation for a were-worm would be ihmismato Now that I have the figure of a creature that is half-worm - half-human in my head, I can see why that was translated as hirmukäärme.
Yes it does, sort of. Ihmissusi = were-wolf, and prefix ihmis- derives from ihminen (human). And of course susi means wolf. So, a word-to-word translation for a were-worm would be ihmismato Now that I have the figure of a creature that is half-worm - half-human in my head, I can see why that was translated as hirmukäärme.
That's awesome. Thank you.
I believe either Reddhawk or Sylux is entitled to post the next question.
This is sort of an unfair question, but what motive did Sauron originally have that led him to join Melkor?
HINT: It wasn't for power, at least at first. Also, I can't recall where I read this information. It might have been in the HoME series, or one of the letters of JRR Tolkien.
Sauron desired order.
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head. Wink, Vilya, 85-Burg, Olde Hippie
Ok, next question. Since I have finally managed to produce a riddle in the Two-Word thread that has lasted longer than 24 hours, I am going to go with something a little more straightforward in this one.
Rank the following in order of size, smallest to largest:
Ulairi
Ulumuri
Uruloki
Urwen
Udun
Uinen
Uilos
I recognize that the matter is not entirely clear cut on a couple of these. I intend to accept any well-reasoned explanation for your ordering of any that are in doubt.
Extra bonus points to anyone who can get all of these without looking them up.
Uilos - The flower simbelmyrne - stated in books as a small flower
Ulumuri - The horn of Ulmo - A horn must be small enough to use
Urwen - Turin's sister - A single human
Ulairi - The Nine - Nine > One
Uruloki - Fire Drgons - I'm fairly sure that dragons are larger than nine people
Udun - Valley in Mordor & Melkor's stronghold - either would be big enough to count as larger than a dragon
Uinen - Maia - see below
I'm putting Uinen as the largest simply due to her hair being said to spread through all the world's oceans; to my mind her hair is a part of her ergo counts towards size.
Uilos - The flower simbelmyrne - stated in books as a small flower
Ulumuri - The horn of Ulmo - A horn must be small enough to use
Urwen - Turin's sister - A single human
Ulairi - The Nine - Nine > One
Uruloki - Fire Drgons - I'm fairly sure that dragons are larger than nine people
Udun - Valley in Mordor & Melkor's stronghold - either would be big enough to count as larger than a dragon
Uinen - Maia - see below
I'm putting Uinen as the largest simply due to her hair being said to spread through all the world's oceans; to my mind her hair is a part of her ergo counts towards size.
Nicely done. I would probably have ranked Urwen as smaller than the Ulumuri since she died when she was three years old, whereas the horns belonged to Ulmo and thus would have been oversized compared to a normal horn for human use. But as I said, I'm not going to be overly fussy about the ones that require a judgement call. I especially liked what you had to say about Uinen.
Why thankee; damn now I have to come up with something - be right back!
OK, not used to this and just threw my answer in as I knew what most of the last question referred to (had to look two of them up). An easy one I think for my first question in an attempt to open up the thread to some who may have been scared off by the lore gods.
Simply name the sons of Feanor from oldest to youngest and their fates.
Why thankee; damn now I have to come up with something - be right back!
OK, not used to this and just threw my answer in as I knew what most of the last question referred to (had to look two of them up). An easy one I think for my first question in an attempt to open up the thread to some who may have been scared off by the lore gods.
Simply name the sons of Feanor from oldest to youngest and their fates.
Maedhros-Jumped into a chasm of fire with one of the Simirils
Maglor-After casting the remaining Simiril into the sea, he wanders the shores of ME singing laments about losing the Similril. It's not known what Maglor's final fate is/was.
Celegorm-Slain by King Dior of Doriath (whom he killed as well)
Caranthir-Also killed in the attack on Doriath
Curufin-Also killed in the attack on Doriath
Amrod and Amras- Both killed in the assualt on the Mouths of Sirion
Maedhros-Jumped into a chasm of fire with one of the Simirils
Maglor-After casting the remaining Simiril into the sea, he wanders the shores of ME singing laments about losing the Similril. It's not known what Maglor's final fate is/was.
Celegorm-Slain by King Dior of Doriath (whom he killed as well)
Caranthir-Also killed in the attack on Doriath
Curufin-Also killed in the attack on Doriath
Amrod and Amras- Both killed in the assualt on the Mouths of Sirion
And of course this is correct, though I should dock points (what do you mean there are no points!) for mispelling Silmaril (twice, both with different spellings) but I don't want to be the spelling police today.
Just wanted to say that most of the participation of people in here are simply amazing. Ive only read The Fellowship of the Ring and Im by no chance close to answering most of the questions. Great work and really nice trivia. You have gave me something to smile at.
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Originally Posted by Ironcrown
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The swedish childrens story was written in 1972 and apparently that Ulf's Saga was published in 1990 so maybe mr Helms and mr Dettman had taken influence from there too.
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