Discussion: Endurance of stone effectiveness.

2 new damage types were added to moria: acid and lightning. Dwarves endurance of stone however, was not updated to include those damage types, making it useless vs mobs who do that type of damage. Was this an intended nerf, or simply an oversight?

I agree totally! This is a great trait for a Dwarf and should have been updated to the new types of damages.

This was brought up when they introduced Forochel with cold mitigation.

Now there are 2 more with moria.

I, and others, brought it up in moria beta. Not one dev responded. I even /bugged and asked a dev about it in the game (as they were the leaders of the moria kinship).

so im guessing intended nerf, as it wasnt an oversight as it has been pointed out SEVERAL times.

It's still saved my beard countless times as is, so for this i'm very thankful.

However, it's a nerf relative to the other racial "saving" skills.

+75% parry for elves, is just as effective as it used to be. (or whatever the new parry rating is).
The morale heal, while a smaller percentage of their morale, is still a large morale heal for men.
The feign death for hobbits works just as well in Moria as it did pre-Moria.

Dwarves got nerfed in Forochel, and now again in Moria. I counted on it to save me in a Watcher run today, and then died, and realized it was b/c of all the acid dmg I took. *sigh*

Envoyé par jkray622

However, it's a nerf relative to the other racial "saving" skills.

+75% parry for elves, is just as effective as it used to be. (or whatever the new parry rating is).
The morale heal, while a smaller percentage of their morale, is still a large morale heal for men.
The feign death for hobbits works just as well in Moria as it did pre-Moria.

Dwarves got nerfed in Forochel, and now again in Moria. I counted on it to save me in a Watcher run today, and then died, and realized it was b/c of all the acid dmg I took. *sigh*

a few points...

Parry does not work against arrows or attacks from behind. This means it can not be used for escaping or for fighting archers.
Man Heal does not scale with level, meaning it doesn't heal full health.
Feign Death still is incredibly useful. My hobbit uses it to run past mobs to get to an item, then drop the aggro and get the item. Help to avoid pointless battles. Unlike the others this, however, can not be used to continue combat, meaning it is often less useful.

As you can see, none of these are perfect, nor are they meant to be.

I think they did this just to make Dwarves look weaker, or people would be asking, "How did the Dwarves lose Moria? They're just so great!"

Thank you for your insight, Jeedai, but perhaps look at it another way. Imagine if:
* All mobs in Moria relied strictly on tactical damage (countering elf parry).
* All mobs in Moria hit for 3000 after a heal was used on their target (countering man heal).
* All mobs in Moria inflicted all their damage using dots (countering hobbit feign death).
If this were the case, then your comments would have some basis. Unlike some of the potential weaknesses in other races' emergency skills, the weakness in the dwarf skill is such that it renders the skill *completely* useless against very common damage types in Moria. Just as it did in some parts of Forochel, the shortcomings of our racial skill not only make it pointless in much of Moria, something no other race can claim. As for the hobbit concern, breaking combat, that's irrelevant when the skill is designed to save you from death...

This topic needs to stay on the first page...I really do see it as a Oversight and it should be "fixed".

Every racial has it's weakness. The dwarf racial encompassed all major forms of damage untill acid in moria (you would be hard pressed to convince me "frost" and "lightning" are major forms of PvE related incoming damage). I'm fine living with it since I still prefer the dwarf racial more than the others. So it has a weakness, I guess that makes it balanced with all other racials.

I honestly have never traited for Endurance of Stone. It's not exactly a man-heal or Last Stand (which heals you at the end), and it seems like if you give the dwarf vitality bonus you buy your fellowship extra time so Endurance of Stone is unnecessary. Also, if you're a non-hunter dwarf, you need your racial port to get places (especially if you switch between PvMP and PvE, or travel around a lot for various reasons - endgame raiders wouldn't have this problem).

My Fav of the racial skills... the no power cost and in some fights 10 seconds can stack up to be a fair chunk of damage. Especially if its coming from mobs slinging fire/shadow.

Some spit and polish would be nice to ALL racial traits in general though.

The racial should've been updated back in book 14 when they introduced Frost damage with Forohell...I've mentioned it many times since then.

Those lighting looking dudes (excuse my lore nubness) in the SoM raid look like they may spit out some nasty lightning damage.

Then again 75% all damage>75% parry>or=3000 morale

in essence that is what we are asking for 75% invulnerability for 10 seconds

And Hobbit Silence, could be useful, but 9/10 when I FD on my Minstrel the group wiped and I do it so I can rez in place. The other 1/10 is for training zones.

Envoyé par R3dShirt

Some spit and polish would be nice to ALL racial traits in general though.

agreed!

Envoyé par R3dShirt

Some spit and polish would be nice to ALL racial traits in general though.

AMEN! Head-butt is always kewl tho lol

Envoyé par R3dShirt

Some spit and polish would be nice to ALL racial AND CLASS traits in general though.

My personal opinion. Bring back Months of ...... !!!!! I think it's about time they paid some individual love to each class again, instead of general changes at patch time.

Envoyé par crunchbite22

I honestly have never traited for Endurance of Stone. It's not exactly a man-heal or Last Stand (which heals you at the end), and it seems like if you give the dwarf vitality bonus you buy your fellowship extra time so Endurance of Stone is unnecessary. Also, if you're a non-hunter dwarf, you need your racial port to get places (especially if you switch between PvMP and PvE, or travel around a lot for various reasons - endgame raiders wouldn't have this problem).

Have to say this is not smart.Endurance of stone is a great racial.

But it does need fixed
right now it is
75% common mit
75% fire mit
75% shadow mit

My mind poison, lighting, acid, and cold need added this is only 10s they should have the extra mit to everything

Do not let this subject die.

Endurance of stone deserves updating.


*** Edit ***
Here's the first thread created about this very issue post-Forochel: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=244023

I couldn't agree with this more fervently. I started a guard not too long ago and I'm really enjoying it. Dwarves (and hobbits) are my favorite races and, of course, the guardian in the opening LOTRO movie is a dwarf, so I made him a dwarf. Imagine my surprise when I read the guardian forum and a veteran member is advising strongly against choosing the dwarf race for your guard because lightning and acid damage are becoming more prevalent. Sad.

Even more sad, I get the feeling that Turbine is getting by with a skeleton staff these days and that there won't be any updates to our racial skill any time soon. I hope I'm wrong. Why not have it defray all types of damage? It only lasts 10 seconds, it can't be extended, it's on a long cooldown.

Every guard these days seems to be a man. Let's get the dwarves back where they should be. Baruk Khazad!!!

Or change the intro movie to make all the characters into men. Turbine?

Sorry to burst your bubble guys... But Endurance of Stone is WAI... Every clutch racial skill has a weakness... Eldars Grace is +75% parry... of no use if running away. Endurance of Stone is +75% to the aforementioned mitigations, useful unless its another damage type. Strength of Morale, is now the most pointless of racial skills: Its a small to moderate (depending on class/gear/traits) heal with a long animation...meaning you've taken nearly the same amount of damage as the skill healed by the time its finished firing

Envoyé par ArkanisFelldrake

Sorry to burst your bubble guys... But Endurance of Stone is WAI... Every clutch racial skill has a weakness... Eldars Grace is +75% parry... of no use if running away. Endurance of Stone is +75% to the aforementioned mitigations, useful unless its another damage type. Strength of Morale, is now the most pointless of racial skills: Its a small to moderate (depending on class/gear/traits) heal with a long animation...meaning you've taken nearly the same amount of damage as the skill healed by the time its finished firing

Bubble "bursted"... because I think you're missing the point. Endurance of stone, unlike the other skills has been made 100% useless in certain situations. Also, I have seen no dev response concluding this is WIA.

Eldar's Grace is parry, always was parry... It was never designed in the first place to be a skill for getting away or defending against ranged attacks. Thus it has not been "nerfed" since its inception.

Strength of Moral... is contrary to your description, VERY useful. Heaven forbid that it doesn't save you in the ettenmoors when 10 creeps are focus firing you, and the temporary root it creates brought about your demise. Point is: 2500-3000 moral is pivotal in many situations. Especially in raids. That is basically a crit heal. That moral right there could be the difference between someone going down or not. And for end game raids... one person going down, usually means more are soon to follow.

Hobbit silence: No change there.

Endurance of Stone. For what it defends against there has been no change. 75% mitigation. In that regards, strength of moral has scaled back the most. Until you realize, these were the only mitigations around when this skill was made. Now there are more than twice that amount. So while every other racial is always relevant to their intended situations, EoD becomes a pretty icon under your vitals. Meanwhile, damage from simple common mobs, let alone raid bosses, passes unchecked by mitigations. This, I am sorry, should not be WAI, as the skill is not fulfilling it's original intentions.

Envoyé par ArkanisFelldrake

Sorry to burst your bubble guys... But Endurance of Stone is WAI... Every clutch racial skill has a weakness... Eldars Grace is +75% parry... of no use if running away. Endurance of Stone is +75% to the aforementioned mitigations, useful unless its another damage type. Strength of Morale, is now the most pointless of racial skills: Its a small to moderate (depending on class/gear/traits) heal with a long animation...meaning you've taken nearly the same amount of damage as the skill healed by the time its finished firing

Envoyé par Hawk9

Bubble "bursted"... because I think you're missing the point. Endurance of stone, unlike the other skills has been made 100% useless in certain situations. Also, I have seen no dev response concluding this is WIA.

Eldar's Grace is parry, always was parry... It was never designed in the first place to be a skill for getting away or defending against ranged attacks. Thus it has not been "nerfed" since its inception.

Strength of Moral... is contrary to your description, VERY useful. Heaven forbid that it doesn't save you in the ettenmoors when 10 creeps are focus firing you, and the temporary root it creates brought about your demise. Point is: 2500-3000 moral is pivotal in many situations. Especially in raids. That is basically a crit heal. That moral right there could be the difference between someone going down or not. And for end game raids... one person going down, usually means more are soon to follow.

Hobbit silence: No change there.

Endurance of Stone. For what it defends against there has been no change. 75% mitigation. In that regards, strength of moral has scaled back the most. Until you realize, these were the only mitigations around when this skill was made. Now there are more than twice that amount. So while every other racial is always relevant to their intended situations, EoD becomes a pretty icon under your vitals. Meanwhile, damage from simple common mobs, let alone raid bosses, passes unchecked by mitigations. This, I am sorry, should not be WIA, as the skill is not fulfilling it's original intentions.

To this, i 2nd this.

Yes, Endurance of Stone may be exactly as intended, but they haven't changed any gameplay mechanic that effects Strength of Morale, Hobbit Silence, or Eldar's Grace. With the addition of mobs doing Light damage, Acid damage, Lightning damage and Cold damage our OMG Racial skill is rendered compltely useless in many situations that are completely outside of our control, rather that exist by game design after the creation of that skill. Being as intended, pre-Forochel, Endurance of Stone worked properly, but with the addition of more damage types they have created gaping holes in the skills function.

rofl don't try and use it in Forochel like I did

Envoyé par -Sylvan-Shadow-

rofl don't try and use it in Forochel like I did

I'm pretty sure most Dwarves had That moment in Forochel when they popped Endurance and then watched it do absolutely nothing.

This skill should include Frost, Acid and Lightning mitigation. If we had thoses damage types when this skill was created, I'm sure they would have been included.

Something that should be noted when comparing these abilities across races is that, in terms of the man-heal, it is the only ability with a permanent effect. Yes, you may take damage, but any event that happens after the cast is going to be influenced by the fact that there's more morale in someone's morale bar. EoS lasts for 10 seconds and only effects damage based in common, shadow and fire. On the other hand, the man heal effects damage from all sources.
Elf Grace, while only effecting melee attacks, is effective regardless of damage type. Also, if you're big into parry, like you're a Warden or even a Guard, at lvl 65 it's going to be a huge bonus. EoS is based off enemy damage. As damage increases, the amount of damage mitigated might go up but the amount that gets through will be higher. So, while Elves might be parrying potentially all damage from all sources for 10 seconds with an increase of 75% to whatever parry they might have and provided they're all melee attacks, Dwarves are mitigating 75% of all damage, tac and melee, provided they are of common, fire or shadow. Pretty even, I would say, but I don't think either is in line with the man heal.
Add to the EG argument what has been said before, that it is working as it always has whereas EoS has diminished effectiveness (and none in locations such as Forochal) it's clear that the original value of EoS has been lost.

I have to concur, especially in relation to the man's healing trait. Mitigation helps to prevent SOME dmg...healing completely neutralizes and restores total max morale, regardless of the dmg used, it will operate as intended no matter what dmg is being used...and as stated, not only does it go beyond mitigation, it adds to morale. We are simply reducing it with this trait, never coming out in the positive like this trait. We, in turn, get a 75% reduction in specific damage types...not only do we not stop all the damage, we dont stop certain types of damage at all, while the man trait gives a total 2-3000 morale heal, naturally, healing all dmg.. That seems like a huuuuge disparity. But also depends on class...a guardian can arguable do more with moral because of his ability to mitigate with superiority.

comparing stopping the dmg to healing, stopping 2000 dmg with a 75% reduction leads to us taking 500 dmg. 3000 dmg leads to us taking 750. But these are max totals, one might imagine this skill was more useful against multiple mobs. Ie, we absorb 1500, and or 1450 pts of dmg, which pales in comparison to a 3000 healing bonus or surplus...stopping that like amount seems...rather nuts. again, not to mentioned, some dmg just gets through, an as pointed out, the man heal is not temp morale.

Not sure within the 10 seconds of mitigation how much damage we might end up absorbing upon average...but they both have some personal versatility and unusual consistency and depends on class and instance. we can use eos at the start of combat, like the elf parry which can mitigate chances to mitigate completly...the man would pretty much want to wait till he was down in moral the get the maximum effect. However...id rather have the heal. The best form of mitigation is taking away the dmg entirely.

That this hasn't been corrected but they fixed the walking animation leads me to believe they are going to do nothing about it, which is sad. This is obviously an oversight and an imbalance that they refuse to correct.

We, those who play Dwarven Characters, MUST keep this post atop this sub-forum.

Please amend Endurance of Stone to include each damage type (or at least cold/frost, electrical/lightning, and acid).

Thank you.

Endurance of Stone was recently changed to give:
+50% Melee, Ranged and Tactical Mitigation.

If these are the equivalent of Melee/Ranged/Tactical Defence, then this skill is now one of the only (if not the only) sources of Mitigation by damage Source (rather than mitigation by damage type), and covers all types of damage.

Envoyé par Alad.

Endurance of Stone was recently changed to give:
+50% Melee, Ranged and Tactical Mitigation.

If these are the equivalent of Melee/Ranged/Tactical Defence, then this skill is now one of the only (if not the only) sources of Mitigation by damage Source (rather than mitigation by damage type), and covers all types of damage.

Technically it says -50% melee, ranged and tactical damage, but your line of reasoning is correct. Damage while using EoS is now halved: damage taken = base damage x mitigation x 0.5. It removes the chance for 100%+ mitigation that was possible before so no more seeing "Absorbed" above your head constantly while using this skill.

Envoyé par Alad.

Endurance of Stone was recently changed to give:
+50% Melee, Ranged and Tactical Mitigation.

If these are the equivalent of Melee/Ranged/Tactical Defence, then this skill is now one of the only (if not the only) sources of Mitigation by damage Source (rather than mitigation by damage type), and covers all types of damage.

It was a nerf not a major one but a decent one. You get the damage halved from all sources but I personally liked the absorbed factor from common, fire, and shadow. Say some boss hits you with heavy common attacks. Crits for like 2k. Well with EoS how it is now would be 1k. Old EoS would be over 100% mitigation making it absorbed for no damage. Also hurts for the moors only thing that could touch you out there with old EoS was spider dots.

Feels like a fairly big nerf to me.

As a Champion, I can get nearly the same effect for 15s every one minute (if traited for tanking) or a lesser version every five minutes (if not). A one-hour cooldown that does little more than what a class skill can do every 1-5 minutes is very much underwhelming.

I'll miss you, 10s of "Absorbed"...