Thread: Migrating User Guides to Lorebook - Discussion

Hi folks,

We'll use this thread to discuss the migration of User Guides from the forums to the Lorebook, since you will all inevitably think of things we didn't, or have requests that we'll want to see if we can accommodate.

So why the changes? Several reasons:

• Better support for HTML and formatting on the Lorebook
• Automatic table of contents generation (w00t!)
• No risk of guides being deleted during forums cleanup
• No more "I've run out of room in the original post" issues due to forums character limits
• Better categorization and ease of finding guides
• Ability to have a guide fall in multiple categories
• No more abandonment issues when an author stops updating a guide
• Reduction in number of stickied threads at the top of forums
• Link right to other entries on the Lorebook

...and so on.

The idea now is to convert guides over to the Lorebook and have them live in the categories that Clover has already created. We'll convert them as quickly as we can, though if players start moving them too it'll go that much faster.

Original authors are credited at the top of the guide. If players move guides themselves, they should send me or Clover a PM with a link and we'll add the noedit tag to the credits block so it can't be tampered with. The credits block may wind up looking a little different when our graphic artist gets back from his honeymoon.

Guides on the forums will be unstickied. We'll make a subcategory on the forums of links (similar to "Useful Links") that go directly to the categories on the Lorebook to help promote the guides. The goal is to make them easier to find.

For examples of how the guides look on the Lorebook, check out the two that Clover has already converted:

What We Wish Other Classes Knew About Burglars

The Angler's Guide to Fishing in LOTRO

Five days ago when I threw her under this bus, Clover didn't know any wiki markup at all. She's done a great job at picking it up and will be glad to help others who would like help learning how to do simple coding and formatting.

Ultimately we want to make a central repository for user guides that makes them easier to find, easier to read, and easier to update when things change or an author abandons their guide. We're very conscious of the fact that the original authors often put a HUGE amount of effort into their creation and want to make sure they receive proper credit for their entries.

Comments and suggestions on how to make this transition smoother and more useful to you guys are definitely welcome! Thanks!!

-Meghan (and Clover!)

Cool, Patience. There was a nice class guide someone made a while back. I'll try to find it again.

wow, i just read the fishing guide on the lorebook, and it is awesome. however, you might want to change the yellow to something a bit darker, as it is hard ot read it in some places. otherwise, keep up the awesome work

So where should I put http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=127919 such titles in this set up and how to start to it?

Originally Posted by skorpion352

wow, i just read the fishing guide on the lorebook, and it is awesome. however, you might want to change the yellow to something a bit darker, as it is hard ot read it in some places. otherwise, keep up the awesome work

I used the yellow because that is what the creator of the guide used. But I agree it is a bit difficult to read. I will change it to something else I am sure the author wants everyone to be able to read his work!

Originally Posted by SiSL

So where should I put http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=127919 such titles in this set up and how to start to it?

SiSL I set up a new category Lore Guides>>Name Guides
And I created a page for your guide. All you have to do is log in and edit it.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Names...2C_Quick_Guide

I am sure it will turn out awesome. There is a ton of great info there!!

Just be sure to keep the [[Category:Name Guides]] At the bottom of the article when you edit it so it properlly links back to the Name Guides page.

Originally Posted by Clover

I used the yellow because that is what the creator of the guide used. But I agree it is a bit difficult to read. I will change it to something else I am sure the author wants everyone to be able to read his work!

I changed the font colors to maroon and green instead of aqua and yellow. Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Clover

SiSL I set up a new category Lore Guides>>Name Guides
And I created a page for your guide. All you have to do is log in and edit it.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Names...2C_Quick_Guide

I am sure it will turn out awesome. There is a ton of great info there!!

Just be sure to keep the [[Category:Name Guides]] At the bottom of the article when you edit it so it properlly links back to the Name Guides page.

Tried my best at http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Names_in_Middle-Earth yet, not sure how to reduce long contents list or make A B C D E etc. horizontal

Still didnt look so bad so far

Originally Posted by SiSL

Tried my best at http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Names_in_Middle-Earth yet, not sure how to reduce long contents list or make A B C D E etc. horizontal

Still didnt look so bad so far

I just saw it a few minutes ago, I thought it looked pretty awesome actually.

One of the things that really bum me out about the Lore book is the almost non existent information on Monster Play. There is a large number of customers that enjoy monster play but very little info is found in the Lore book and no direct link from the welcome page to anything pertaining to Monster Play.

Suggestion for one that I use all the time: the Online Traits Compendium http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php...01&postcount=1

Some of the info is out of date, like the page drop locations, which were updated in http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php...&postcount=288

I'd move it over myself, but my time is rather limited at the moment.

So make one. I believe that was the entire point of Patience's post.

In the long run, this may prove one of the most useful things in the Lorebook. Great work, Turbine (and Clover et al. in particular)!

I just created two new guide categories (Account and Subscription Guides and Technical Guides). I'll be moving things from the "Help for New Players" FAQ in the Free Trial forum and stuff from the sticky I have in the Account Support forum over. What is really great about this is that I'll be able to make several "guides" that are specific to the needs of player subgroups, instead of throwing everything into a single thread. It should make it much easier for players to find exactly what they are looking for.

I am really excited about this little developement. Good thinking ladies!

Hiya. Harry here, author of the Angler's Guide to Fishing in LOTRO. Clover, first I want to say thank you for taking the time & care to transfer that info over so faithfully. I appreciate it.

I'm kind of on the fence about this whole idea though. Like Patience mentioned, this guide involved a lot of time & effort over several weeks -- testing, fishing, practicing, looking at other folks' responses, following ideas, hitting dead-ends, figuring out new thoughts, reshaping the page. And it became something I was quite proud of in the end.

Now I'm as egalitarian as the next guy. But my understanding is that a wiki is open to edit & alteration by the entire community. Is that right? So the work that I did (including all the very extensive fact-checking on levels, bugs, recipes, whatnot) could be changed on a whim by someone who's sure he caught an 80-lb salmon at level 20 in Overhill?

I really want to be in favor of this, as I do understand the logic behind it. And of course I understand that this is Turbine's Web site and Turbine's resources that have to be kept in mind. But I just want to make sure there's some way to know that this page will remain accurate and useful -- some way that -doesn't- involve daily policing!

Originally Posted by aethelberht

Hiya. Harry here, author of the Angler's Guide to Fishing in LOTRO. Clover, first I want to say thank you for taking the time & care to transfer that info over so faithfully. I appreciate it.

I'm kind of on the fence about this whole idea though. Like Patience mentioned, this guide involved a lot of time & effort over several weeks -- testing, fishing, practicing, looking at other folks' responses, following ideas, hitting dead-ends, figuring out new thoughts, reshaping the page. And it became something I was quite proud of in the end.

Now I'm as egalitarian as the next guy. But my understanding is that a wiki is open to edit & alteration by the entire community. Is that right? So the work that I did (including all the very extensive fact-checking on levels, bugs, recipes, whatnot) could be changed on a whim by someone who's sure he caught an 80-lb salmon at level 20 in Overhill?

I really want to be in favor of this, as I do understand the logic behind it. And of course I understand that this is Turbine's Web site and Turbine's resources that have to be kept in mind. But I just want to make sure there's some way to know that this page will remain accurate and useful -- some way that -doesn't- involve daily policing!

It is true that anyone in the LotRO community can edit. I have posted a lot of stuff in the Lorebook, and I know how frustrating it can be to have someone "mess" with it. The thing to do is put the article on your watch list, then when someone changes anything you will know, and can check it out. If the change is accurate, you can leave it. If it is not, you can remove it. If it is a case of vandalizing you can report it. There is also a discussion page on each article, where you may be able to come to some agreement on content. There are ways to handle such things, and I think the benefit to the community far out-weighs the aggravation and/or frustration it may cause original authors.

Originally Posted by aethelberht

But I just want to make sure there's some way to know that this page will remain accurate and useful -- some way that -doesn't- involve daily policing!

Hey Harry Your Angler's Guide rocks. Seriously.

As for your point above, this is something we're definitely aware of and took into consideration when figuring out details of the move. One of the "nice" things about wikis is versioning. At any time you can see who's edited a page and what they changed, and can roll back to a previous version if necessary. You can also Watch a page, so checking your Watchlist will tell you if any of the pages on it have been touched.

From what we've seen, people who take time to edit the wiki are fairly respectful and careful, especially if they're editing someone else's work. If you're concerned about the accuracy of what people might add to the guide, you could add a section at the bottom for others' contributions and keep it separate from the main body of the guide, perhaps? Just a thought!

-Meghan

It would be really helpful to have an "Instance Guides" and a "Quest Guides".

Is it possible to just put in links to the forum threads for the time being, until someone takes the time to convert the guide.

Originally Posted by dhatcher1

It would be really helpful to have an "Instance Guides" and a "Quest Guides".

Is it possible to just put in links to the forum threads for the time being, until someone takes the time to convert the guide.

There is a section for Walkthroughs that should cover Quest/Instance guides, if anyone wants to add them. I created the category and put the original few there (Archet Intro quests) during the preliminary beta editing phase, I believe someone added a Helegrod guide later. You can find them on the Lorebook Home page under "Spoilers". Obviously a lot more could be done there.

it looks much bettern ow clover, keep up the good work.

btw, someoen should write a guide for makign guides :P

Originally Posted by Patience

Hey Harry Your Angler's Guide rocks. Seriously.

Thanks! *blush* It's been a lotta fun creating something that got so much input & feedback & traffic.

I can tell I'm getting old. My first reaction to "change" and "new technology" is to grimace and grump. But I'm sure once I get the hang of wiki-markup-language it'll probably be great. I -really- like the table ability for one thing!

Originally Posted by Patience

One of the "nice" things about wikis is versioning. At any time you can ... roll back to a previous version if necessary. You can also Watch a page, so checking your Watchlist will tell you if any of the pages on it have been touched.

This actually helps a bunch. It still means keeping an eye on it, but at least fixing things is easy. Probably a fair trade-off for being able to collect all these guides in one place. Thanks (to you too Cherubina!) for pointing out these bits.

Grumpily looking forward to learning new tricks!

Thanks for converting my Burglar thread, Patience and Clover!

I've converted the other six What We Wish Other Classes Knew About threads:

Captains
Champions
Guardians
Hunters
Lore-masters
Minstrels

This wiki addition is totally awesome! Thank you for the good work!

All we need now is a guide to pick up chicks

Originally Posted by aethelberht

Thanks! *blush* It's been a lotta fun creating something that got so much input & feedback & traffic.

I can tell I'm getting old. My first reaction to "change" and "new technology" is to grimace and grump. But I'm sure once I get the hang of wiki-markup-language it'll probably be great. I -really- like the table ability for one thing!


This actually helps a bunch. It still means keeping an eye on it, but at least fixing things is easy. Probably a fair trade-off for being able to collect all these guides in one place. Thanks (to you too Cherubina!) for pointing out these bits.

Grumpily looking forward to learning new tricks!

Harry I spent quite a bit of time yesterday learning how to make those tables. I think it was really worth the effort and I wanted to do your guide justice.

This is what I have been using for help:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Reference_card
This link for tables:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Table

Hope this info helps!

Originally Posted by Beleg

Thanks for converting my Burglar thread, Patience and Clover!

I've converted the other six What We Wish Other Classes Knew About threads:

Captains
Champions
Guardians
Hunters
Lore-masters
Minstrels

Beleg they look awesome !

Originally Posted by skorpion352

it looks much bettern ow clover, keep up the good work.

btw, someoen should write a guide for makign guides :P

Thanks for the feedback!

so now at the top of all the appropriate forums we will have 1 sticky with links to all the good guides on the wiki for that particular forums right?

OMG. I love the "what we wish other classes knew about us" pages - and I wish I'd found them sooner First, I LOL'd really hard reading the minstrel one because a) it's ALL TRUE and b) I was picturing being in CD going "Get out from behind that rock I can't heal you" and telling our champ to stop running out of range. Hehehe. I read the burglar one too and was impressed - there were a lot of things I didn't know. And without this focus on them being in the Lorebook I probly would have missed them - I'm a forum skimmer, read the main page mostly, but I love the Lorebook already and will be sure to keep checking out these user guides Great idea and excellent work!

Next spot - this fishing guide I hear about

Originally Posted by aethelberht

But I just want to make sure there's some way to know that this page will remain accurate and useful -- some way that -doesn't- involve daily policing!

In my limited experience with Wiki's I have noticed that the apparent weakness of anyone being able to edit it, is actually one of its better strengths. Not only can you keep tabs on the pages and info you generate, but the better part of the community is likely to do the same thing... especially for articles of higher quality.

Just jumping into the discussion here with a question...

First, I don't know the first thing when it comes to creating a wiki page on the Lorebook (or any other wiki for that matter). But I have created a Cooking guide in an excel spreadsheet format, mainly for personal use and sharing with my kinmates. I'd love to be able to share it with the rest of the community and open it up for their input. But, like I said, I don't know how to go about doing that.

What my question is, essentially, is how to do this. Where to look, who to talk to, etc. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Jaxom922

Just jumping into the discussion here with a question...

First, I don't know the first thing when it comes to creating a wiki page on the Lorebook (or any other wiki for that matter). But I have created a Cooking guide in an excel spreadsheet format, mainly for personal use and sharing with my kinmates. I'd love to be able to share it with the rest of the community and open it up for their input. But, like I said, I don't know how to go about doing that.

What my question is, essentially, is how to do this. Where to look, who to talk to, etc. Thanks.

Jax,

I posted some links a couple of threads up. They are what helped me. But, if you need help getting your page set up and linked send me a pm. I have been helping a few people as best I can anyway getting their own guides set up and is has worked out awesome.

Originally Posted by Clover

Jax,

I posted some links a couple of threads up. They are what helped me. But, if you need help getting your page set up and linked send me a pm. I have been helping a few people as best I can anyway getting their own guides set up and is has worked out awesome.

I can personally attest to this.

Clover has been a fantastic help in putting up with tons of PM's from me in getting my guide up and running. She helped start mine and got me going and I finished it all off, (btw it took forever for me to finish cause of some many tailoring recipes, having to HTML every single one to put in color and make it bold, which was at least 2+ days of work).

Thank you Clover for all your help and hard work and I can't wait to see other guides that are up there on the Lorebook.

My finished Tailoring Guide is now on the Lorebook.
http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/A_Tai...s_Recipe_Guide

Deja

Originally Posted by theboondocksaints

I can personally attest to this.

Clover has been a fantastic help in putting up with tons of PM's from me in getting my guide up and running. She helped start mine and got me going and I finished it all off, (btw it took forever for me to finish cause of some many tailoring recipes, having to HTML every single one to put in color and make it bold, which was at least 2+ days of work).

Thank you Clover for all your help and hard work and I can't wait to see other guides that are up there on the Lorebook.

My finished Tailoring Guide is now on the Lorebook.
http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/A_Tai...s_Recipe_Guide

Deja

Deja that turned out amazing! I love the comments and sugestions part you added at the bottom. I really enjoyed helping you.
Zmaster took the example of your guide and is making one of his own that looks great.
http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/A_Met...s_Recipe_Guide

Originally Posted by Clover

I love the comments and sugestions part you added at the bottom.[/URL]

Isn't that the purpose of the Discussions tab that each wiki page has.

It would probably be best to leave that kind of thing there so as not to clutter up the main pages.

Thanks for the post on fishing as i didnt know how to fish.

Still waiting for my Minstrel guide posted in the class sticky to get the hyperlink changed to the new lorebook entry.

I posted this to the lorebook: http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Thain...Money_in_LOTRO

But haven't been able to format it as nicely as other guides, nor have I figured out how to place it in categories. Any help would be great!

Originally Posted by seyahat

I posted this to the lorebook: http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Thain...Money_in_LOTRO

But haven't been able to format it as nicely as other guides, nor have I figured out how to place it in categories. Any help would be great!

Any suggestions for this?

Thanks to Clover for helping me to set this up.

Originally Posted by seyahat

Thanks to Clover for helping me to set this up.

You are very welcome!