Thread: Monster play issues and discussion

We want to know what everyone involved in monster play has to say. Your feedback is something that is very valuable to us, but sometimes it tends to get lost in various areas throughout these forums. If you have something you would like to discuss relating to PvMP, please post in the monster play section of the forums.

Going forward I will be helping out here, specifically with issues relating to PvMP, so having everything in one location will be helpful to me in gathering information and pointing out threads to the Devs.

Thanks and I look forward to getting to know all of you in the coming weeks and months.

Welcome.

Hope you packed hip boots, a whip and a chair.

Thank you very much for the personal attention. There is tons to look at already in the MP forums and I do not envy your task. Please post often so we never forget there is some one out there listening. We get grumpy when we are left alone too long

One request then:

Server specific PvMP issues need their own sub-folder for each server

Example
Elendilmir
--->Elendilmir Kinships
--->Elendilmir PvMP
--->Elendilmir Trade

This has been requested several times now and has yet to be implemented. I think the community is in general agreement that this would be a VAST improvement to our forum experience for both the PvE and PvMP crowds.

I know there is already a ton of information to digest at this point. I have already been doing that along with playing on various servers just about every night. I have already learned quite a bit, but as with anything I can still learn more.

I do think that if we can keep everything centralized here, it will make all of our lives easier.

Quite refreshing that you're actively asking for player input. I'll keep my response short and sweet, in fact I'll limit it to the two things I think are keeping PvMP from being as fun as it could be.

#1 An camping
#2 Trolls and rangers


Both could be fixed so easily too...

Originally Posted by Frelorn

I have already been doing that along with playing on various servers just about every night.

Do you play a creep or a freep?
Cause, you know, that changes things up a bit...

Creeps need some love. We can start by fixing bugs for poor reavers and spiders.

I will start off by saying hi,

I will qualify my statements by saying I have a fraction of the PvMP experience that many have(rank 2 ba is my highest)

I have one major concern. I do not mind having to improve my creep.

I do mind having no relatively safe place to do so.I know it is pvp but for the last several weeks it is more PvRaid.


I am not looking for easy ranking as i solo much of the time.But getting the destiny points required can be very tough when you cannot collect the basics without being killed over and over again.


I think that random wandering patrols in the grams area of the map would help.


also I have a new computer that scored a 5.9 on windows vista scale.

yet i can barely run around in the moors on all low settings without massive lag.

last but not least , having no counter to a 30 second time out (when pots have 2min cooldown) makes being a creep a very frustrating experience as well.

This got to me to the point that i stopped bringing my loremaster to the moors for now as i put myself in others shoes and i did not like the fit.

I am sure you will get much more enlightened feedback from the vets but this is my list of issues.


ty for asking

Originally Posted by Koenigcitizen

Do you play a creep or a freep?
Cause, you know, that changes things up a bit...

Creeps need some love. We can start by fixing bugs for poor reavers and spiders.

Both. Though I will say that since nearly all of my playing time up until recently had been on the PvE side of things, I was pretty familiar with how the Freeps work. After playing around as a Freep for a short time, I decided the first thing I should do is get to know the Creep side of things better. So most of my time for the last couple of weeks has been spent playing various Creep classes across different servers.

welcome to the slums buddy. Seriously though, its nice to have you.

Always glad to see a dev actively listening to us.

One thing you might want to do is level a loremaster if you haven't already and take them into the ettens. I think you will probably see that a lot of the combat problems stem from their ridiculous arsenal of CC abilities. This is coming from a rank 7 LM btw There's no other class that causes creeps to say "Oh #$*^# they have a -insert class here- with them.

Greetings, Frelorn!

Nothing boosts morale on these forums like a little Charred Dev Ear. Thanks for volunteering yours!

1. balance the CC so monster players aren't at a major diadvantage.

2.fix some of the wierd bugs that are on creep and freep side.

3. I can haz healer now? Or atleast some healer information now?

4. welcome to the monster play forums 0.o

when you play, is it know that your from Turbine? or do you go all burglar on 'em and sneak in?


I would think that this is a given, but are you able to tell the "peak" times on each server for PVP? If not i would suggest talking to some of the more constant PVP'ers from each server to find out what times/days would give you the best cross section of activity from which to pull your experience.

once again, WELCOME.

1. Weavers need serious help. Right now our only two good skills are the Web snare and Latent Poison. Steelweave Webs is completely broken at this point. Our damage also is pathetic. Our DOT's are okay, especially stacked with others. Burrow and Lie in Wait are both pretty useless. Burrow should either work like Feign Death, or regen our health over time (increase the cooldown on the skill if you do this). Lie in Wait needs to be more powerful, both damage wise and stealth level. There's just not much incentive to burrow since you're probably going to be found, and if you do pop up, Freeps will just laugh and kill you.

2. Trolls/Rangers: There's no reward for killing session players at the moment, and no penalty for dying as one. This means that a group kills one, receives no reward, and then the Troll/Ranger comes right back from the rez circle. Renown/Infamy should be rewarded for killing a Troll/Ranger, perhaps some formula involving how much the session player would have theoretically earned from his damage/KB's. Also, there needs to be some penalty for dying as a Troll/Ranger. Either a longer respawn with each death, or a growing dread penalty with each death.

3. Raid Assists should be given more power in the moors, such as the ability to /raidshout and reorganize the raid. This would make organizing large raids easier.

Warning!!!! Generalizations Below, No Insults implied or intended.

PvPer's are looking for a challenge. They don't mind losing a fight as long as there is the possibility of winning. If two max level archers fight 1 vs 1, the one that out plays the other should win. Simple as that. Gear and uber abilities should never be the overwhelming deciding factor. In short, a PvPer never wants to be over-powered because there is no excitement in that. There is no thrill, no challenge.

Players in the PvE environment tend to have a different view on that and I am not saying that view is wrong. PvEers tend to think they deserve an over-powered state due to hard work and effort though raiding and questing. Although I can support that completely in the PvE world, there is unfortunately no place for that in PvP.

Can PvEers and PvPers live together in the 'moors? Well, the 'moors need to be balanced to give PvP fans (Freeps and Creeps) the challenge they are looking for. PvE fans have many more options in the game if they decide not to participate. PvP fans really only have the option of leaving LotRO for another game.

Originally Posted by ozz1376

when you play, is it know that your from Turbine? or do you go all burglar on 'em and sneak in?


I would think that this is a given, but are you able to tell the "peak" times on each server for PVP? If not i would suggest talking to some of the more constant PVP'ers from each server to find out what times/days would give you the best cross section of activity from which to pull your experience.

once again, WELCOME.

When I play, my characters are the same as everyone else. I have been gaining infamy and Destiny points the same way everyone else does. I have found the best way to get some honest opinions and knowledge is to just be a player. I have learned quite a bit over the last couple of weeks, and I usually learn a little more each time I play.

I do know the peak times for each server, for the most part. And while I try to be on every server as much as I can, I do need to make sure I get a very broad picture of things, so playing some during off peak hours can give some interesting perspective as well.

As it is now, my wife has been giving me the evil eye, for the amount of time I spend playing games.

Originally Posted by Frelorn

As it is now, my wife has been giving me the evil eye of the amount of time I spend playing games.

I wantz your job.

Originally Posted by Frelorn

As it is now, my wife has been giving me the evil eye of the amount of time I spend playing games.

"BUT HONEY, ITS MY JOB!"

brother, if i could say that, all would be well in the world. lol

Well good Sir.

It's nice to have someone around when Orion's out writing the 6,000,000,000 page Dev diary.
(I'm joking Orion, take your time if it makes it a better diary )

My only real requests are:

1. Max CC time 10 seconds.

2. 50% cap on slows (excluding falling damage)

3. Extend An respawn timer to at least 20 minutes between his respawns.

4. Give us a tidbit about the Defiler while we wait for the diary on it, please? I'm so excited about it. I'll take anything that hasn't been told already, like a single skill description . If not, when's the diary gonna be out? A day or 2? Next week?

Thanks again for this.

Originally Posted by ozz1376

"BUT HONEY, ITS MY JOB!"

brother, if i could say that, all would be well in the world. lol

That line only works for so long, trust me.

Originally Posted by Frelorn

As it is now, my wife has been giving me the evil eye, for the amount of time I spend playing games.

PLAY MOAR NAOW!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Frelorn

As it is now, my wife has been giving me the evil eye of the amount of time I spend playing games.

hehe, we have something in common, lol.

Seriously though, thank you for posting and asking for feedback.

Some fixes regarding weavers relate to the web duration buffs, and the broken racial trait (Shelob's gift). Any idea when we can expect some feedback or info on those things getting fixed?

great to have you here, some of my concerns are

1.CC
2.Stacking DITE
3.WLs fate in bk13

Also some bug fixes would be great, ettendeep quests, and some new skills for my WL would be nice

Ok i just thought of a question, do you have any plans in the future to lower the amount of infamy needed for higher ranks? Because some of them atm are ridiculous and will take years to get even with the new infamy system

My monster play has basically consisted of getting camped at Grams and dying several dozen times and then actually finding time when Grams wasn't camped but still getting killed by 4 burglars while trying to kill slugs.

All in all it hasn't been all that fun.

Originally Posted by Rwraith

My monster play has basically consisted of getting camped at Grams and dying several dozen times and then actually finding time when Grams wasn't camped but still getting killed by 4 burglars while trying to kill slugs.

All in all it hasn't been all that fun.

I will be honest here and say that I think that camping the space where players return after death/incapacitation is one of the most aggravating things I have run into while playing PvP of any type. I know it happens everywhere, but that does not make any more fun for those who are camped constantly.

We are hopeful that we will be able to find some way of reducing or removing the ways and or reasons that players camp like this. No promises at this point, but this has definitely been a topic of discussion here.

Welcome to the boards and MP. I am really glad to see that you are visiting several different servers as I have a sneaking suspicion that no 2 servers are the same. I DO think that Creeps are a lot closer to parity than they have ever been, and we just need the numbers to stabilize to prove it.

Originally Posted by Frelorn

I will be honest here and say that I think that camping the space where players return after death/incapacitation is one of the most aggravating things I have run into while playing PvP of any type. I know it happens everywhere, but that does not make any more fun for those who are camped constantly.

We are hopeful that we will be able to find some way of reducing or removing the ways and or reasons that players camp like this. No promises at this point, but this has definitely been a topic of discussion here.

great to here that, maybe put a rez circle in Grothum/HH and when players die they can choose if they want to rez at grams/GV, grothum/HH or Lug or TR if they have control over those keeps, that way players without maps could escape the camping and i doubt freeps would have enough numbers to camp 2 rez circles at once

Thx for this thread.

Here are 5 suggestions:

1. The raid infamy bonus is ridiculously overweighted. 400+ infamy on a kill is TOO much. You're making infamy/rank essentially meaningless (little more than an attendance award.)

2. Mitigate freepside CC some. Any fair-minded person knows that it's a problem. I'd be happy if you did nothing but reduce the CD on CC pots from 1 minute to 30 seconds. Other ideas have been floated too. Do something.

3. Give a tangible reason/benefit to rank at every level creepside. Currently r8 WLs get essentially nothing (a trait I won't be equipping, because I'd have to unslot a more useful trait to do so.)

4. Fix hotspots. Corpse-flipping is lame. Make it so that a hotspot flips automatically when all the guards are dead.

5. Enable freeps/creeps to spar without infamy/renown changing hands.

Edit: Oh and rez circle camping isn't something I do, but I don't have any problem with it whatsoever. We wipe rez circle campers all the time. That's PvP 101.

It's been mentioned a number of times already, but worth repeating:

1. Max CC effect with some immunity after effect wears off.
2. Max effect of slows, with no 2 of the same stackable.
3. Please please please fix the long standing bugs. They hurt so much.

Indeed welcome.

I had a sneaking suspicion that someone dev side was playing on Elendimir last week. Who else would ask thoughtful introspective questions of the creeps? If so, I'm very glad you found the vent server as it is truly a gem among all the servers. By far the best gaming experience I've found on LOTRO.

Just having someone reply to us as monster players will go a long way towards soothing the anxiety and animosity you'll notice in several of the posts.

I don't envy your job, but someone has to do it and we are grateful.

Nurluk
Bane of the Loremasters
E

Rez circle camping only helps wargs and burgs. I'm a champion, we gain NOTHING by camping grams or rez circles. I loose most of my kills because i cant slow you down for more then 30 seconds. And I have a 15 second speed burst. Once thats done Ive got no way to catch you. You can run from me all day. Its frustrating to beat someone in combat 1v1 have them run off and you chase them for a while to see a hunter just wander by and gun them down.

You have to remember every time you buff the creeps in response to the fact LMs can stun for hours and burgs and hunters own everyone, you make PVMP a lot less fun and rewarding for champs captains and guardians. We cant stealth our ranged sucks we cant stun you for hours, your faster then us you've got more moral. We can run but your gonna catch us eventually. We can out damage you but we cant catch you.

I'm quite concerned that balancing for the overpowering classes are going to leave the rest of us behind. I agree that Freep CC owns. But when you start making creeps have an immunity to stun you totally negate the champions horn. I can run into a group of 10 mobs blow my horn and maybe 1-2 will get stunned. But they will stun and web me.

So in conclusion I must ask that you notice that many of the freep classes are being left behind in this upgrade the creeps spree. My stun is pretty useless, and i find my kills being stolen by hunters. I find its impossible to spot wargs until their on top of you.

p.s. please fix the bug where spiders can exit combat when they burrow.

p.p.s. Id love to debate anyone on how champs guardians or captains own creeps.

Huzzah! Welcome! And thank you a million times over to taking the time to listen to the players, and find out what's really happening in Monster Play.

Lets face it - Monster Play has become an even bigger animal than first expected. So lets balance it out and make it fun & fair to play! I am more than glad to throw in my 2 cents if it will help.

The issues I see, from my limited perspective of a Rank 4 Reaver, and Rank 3 Warg. I'm sure you've seen the same issues:

1. CC's are out of hand. Just constant stun, mez, knockdown, etc for 30 seconds to a full minute (you usually never make it to 1 minute alive). Very hard to handle for us Creeps.

2. The Grams camping is very discouraging to the newbies. I as a more experienced player, know exactly how to get out without a problem (maps, circumvent, friends with raids). But newbies don't!

3. I believe the Infamy gain from Raids/Groups/Solo is perfect. Really wouldn't change it that much. Made a large different in how I was able to earn my ranks. For someone who doesn't have much time to play (a hour or two a night, and not all on a Creep) - it makes a difference.

4. BUT (continuing from the point above) -- for newbies who have no reputation in the 'Moors, or don't have any good friends that lead raids -- it's pretty much impossible to rank up effectively. Everyone is wary of the next green dot... maybe he's a Freep spy? Maybe he'll make the raid wipe? Create alternative methods of gaining infamy.

5. Destiny gains are good right now -- even for a casual player. I don't have issues with that. And please don't remove or nerf First Marshall An. Again from the perspective of a player who can't always get in on a "Keep Raid" (rather doesn't have time, and my raids always want infamy not DP), First Marshall An is a good reliable source of Destiny Points. It's such a help to the casual player to have An.

6. Balance the classes so that their abilities don't work the same in PvMP (i.e. Burglars, Loremasters). I.E. -- Make the mezzes, roots, stuns with extra large diminishing returns (from point 1 above). Burglars at almost any level are hard to handle... even for a sig. Same with Loremasters. I just can't solo a Loremaster effectively, and I play as smart as possible. But that's besides the point. Please consider balancing the Freeps & Creeps.

I think that's all I have for now!!! I hope these are helpful.

Originally Posted by ararax2

Rez circle camping only helps wargs and burgs. I'm a champion, we gain NOTHING by camping grams or rez circles. I loose most of my kills because i cant slow you down for more then 30 seconds. And I have a 15 second speed burst. Once thats done Ive got no way to catch you. You can run from me all day. Its frustrating to beat someone in combat 1v1 have them run off and you chase them for a while to see a hunter just wander by and gun them down.

You have to remember every time you buff the creeps in response to the fact LMs can stun for hours and burgs and hunters own everyone, you make PVMP a lot less fun and rewarding for champs captains and guardians. We cant stealth our ranged sucks we cant stun you for hours, your faster then us you've got more moral. We can run but your gonna catch us eventually. We can out damage you but we cant catch you.

I'm quite concerned that balancing for the overpowering classes are going to leave the rest of us behind. I agree that Freep CC owns. But when you start making creeps have an immunity to stun you totally negate the champions horn. I can run into a group of 10 mobs blow my horn and maybe 1-2 will get stunned. But they will stun and web me.

So in conclusion I must ask that you notice that many of the freep classes are being left behind in this upgrade the creeps spree. My stun is pretty useless, and i find my kills being stolen by hunters. I find its impossible to spot wargs until their on top of you.

p.s. please fix the bug where spiders can exit combat when they burrow.

p.p.s. Id love to debate anyone on how champs guardians or captains own creeps.

Champions can slow someone non-stop, because the CD is shorter than the duration of the slow, also you have your horn thing, also how am i gonna catch a champ? I dont a stun or a slow, WLs NEED some CC

Originally Posted by Frelorn

I will be honest here and say that I think that camping the space where players return after death/incapacitation is one of the most aggravating things I have run into while playing PvP of any type. I know it happens everywhere, but that does not make any more fun for those who are camped constantly.

We are hopeful that we will be able to find some way of reducing or removing the ways and or reasons that players camp like this. No promises at this point, but this has definitely been a topic of discussion here.

I sent a private message to Orion, but I'll repost it here. :

With regards to this post (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...31#post1714731), I missed the original post until I saw your reply on Dev Tracker, but I wanted to let you know my thoughts on the issue. Take it for what it's worth.

I just started a creep because I am at 50, and can't always find kinmates to raid with. So the Ettenmoors is where it's at. The problem I run into (just like the OP said) is that a whole host of Freeps will track for the one creep out there, and come over and kill them. In my case, I was just below DG, at the extreme west of the map, and they came over and killed me (presumably tracking from HH to Lug). I like playing a Creep, I really enjoy the time and effort you guys put into it, but if I need Destiny points to level up (and quests), it puts me into a catch 22. (Get killed trying to level up to so you don't die so easily).

I hate it when things are nerfed -- but perhaps you guys could introduce negative infamy for killing someone who was substantially below you in rank? It's certainly not a perfect answer, but maybe it'll start the wheels of ideas turning.

I know that PvMP was initially an afterthought, but it truly is a fun way to play. I thank you for putting time and effort into it.
---

It would be even nicer if the Freeps would just leave the lone creeps alone if we're doing quests that we're required to do to level up (killing slugs). But, that just doesn't seem like it will happen.

Wow..thank YOU for asking this question, it has made my day. As others have said, monster play has become a much bigger animal that I think Turbine first anticipated. I'm going to reiterate a few things that others have said that I agree with, as well as a few points of my own:

(I have a rank 4 reaver, rank 4 warg, and misc. others)


---Needs some tweaking---

1. CC (on the freep side) is WAY out of hand. A majority of fights you are either constantly stunned, rooted, mezzed, or knocked down. WAY out of hand.

2. Originally I think Turbine planned for creeps to be overpowering in numbers to the freeps, therefore it would balance out by the creeps having the numbers, and the freeps having the upperhand 1v1. Now, with the introduction of rewards and the delving, sometimes we are way outnumbered by freeps. Creeps need buffs, big time. We need more skills, and need to stand up 1 on 1 better than we do now to a freep.

3. Camping newbie areas. Yes it happens a lot, yes it is out of hand. It is very difficult to advance in small solo quests when "newbie" areas are camped. As others have suggested, maybe providing alternate or safe means to advance is the answer.


---OK as is----

1. Destiny point quests and gains

2. Infamy gains both solo and in groups

I'm sure there are a lot more things I can think of right now, but those are the main points for me.

Originally Posted by yetis9

Champions can slow someone non-stop, because the CD is shorter than the duration of the slow, also you have your horn thing, also how am i gonna catch a champ? I dont a stun or a slow, WLs NEED some CC

well spiders wargs and reavers all get a bonus to speed that makes their speed +100%, when i slow you for 30% your (those 3 classes) your still moving at 140% speed, with sprint on im running at 125% for 15 seconds.
Now IF I did get the first hamstring off on you by the time you decided to run away its gone, since unless you feel like standing still and hitting each other were both running around in circles using AOEs and trying to target. Its a lot harder to get hamstring off then you think However yes a WL is majorly screwed if I hit him with it. However my chances of catching anyone with a speed burst is pretty slim, since you can just run in circles and try to avoid me till it (hamstring) wears off.
Now where hamstring is great is in large battles where we just run around hamstringing everyone.
But this is exactly my point, If they keep making creeps more immune champs caps and guards fall even further behind in their ability to have fun and get kills. Some more wound defense and even hamstring wont help. The upgrades are pushed to make creeps compete with burgs hunters and LMs, while the classes that were decently balanced will fall further behind.

High ranked creeps are on par with top-teir geared freeps.

It balances out as some creeps are actually more powerful than some freeps and visa versa.

Overall, the individual balance, as such, is much much better than during the earlier books (at high creep ranks).

Freeps gain no effectiveness as they rank. Nor do they have any real incentive except cloned gear. This should change.

However, regardless of balance, as long as one side has more than enough than the other, they will be the dominating side.

Sadly, numbers truely dictates the quality of combat, and since there is no option of betrayel (freeps fighting freeps, creeps fighting creeps, creeps allying with freeps) I don't know of a way to fix that.

dio/rank 9 champ

Glad to see we have another dev actively involved in the forums. Thank you for spending the time to get to know the individual servers and the general patterns that exist, if any.

Trolls and Rangers are frustrating for both sides, because they are overpowered. While they can definitely swing the battle one way or the other, I think the most frustrating thing about them is that there is no reward for killing one.

When defending or taking a keep, if I'm one of the freeps guarding the bottom level, when two trolls come rampaging through, it can take the raid several minutes to kill one or both of them (depending on the number of creeps with them). And when they die (and probably took out a few freeps at the same time), there is absolutely no bonus for us, except knowing that we bought ourselves 2 minutes without troll interference--when he will return with full power/morale, and continue rampaging through us.

Either give trolls/rangers a finite number of "lives", or give infamy/renown for killing them. I wouldn't mind them so much if everyone in my raid got 50-100 renown when a troll went down. That would certainly be commensurate with the effort it takes. As it is, they only detract from the "fun" that I have in the Moors. On both sides...

Oh, and the bug of corpses flipping hotspots. And NPCs being trained into one-shot NPCs (either move hotspots, or move rez circles further away from them).