Thread: Monster play issues and discussion

We want to know what everyone involved in monster play has to say. Your feedback is something that is very valuable to us, but sometimes it tends to get lost in various areas throughout these forums. If you have something you would like to discuss relating to PvMP, please post in the monster play section of the forums.

Going forward I will be helping out here, specifically with issues relating to PvMP, so having everything in one location will be helpful to me in gathering information and pointing out threads to the Devs.

Thanks and I look forward to getting to know all of you in the coming weeks and months.

Welcome.

Hope you packed hip boots, a whip and a chair.

Thank you very much for the personal attention. There is tons to look at already in the MP forums and I do not envy your task. Please post often so we never forget there is some one out there listening. We get grumpy when we are left alone too long

I know there is already a ton of information to digest at this point. I have already been doing that along with playing on various servers just about every night. I have already learned quite a bit, but as with anything I can still learn more.

I do think that if we can keep everything centralized here, it will make all of our lives easier.

Quite refreshing that you're actively asking for player input. I'll keep my response short and sweet, in fact I'll limit it to the two things I think are keeping PvMP from being as fun as it could be.

#1 An camping
#2 Trolls and rangers


Both could be fixed so easily too...

Originally Posted by Frelorn

I have already been doing that along with playing on various servers just about every night.

Do you play a creep or a freep?
Cause, you know, that changes things up a bit...

Creeps need some love. We can start by fixing bugs for poor reavers and spiders.

Originally Posted by Koenigcitizen

Do you play a creep or a freep?
Cause, you know, that changes things up a bit...

Creeps need some love. We can start by fixing bugs for poor reavers and spiders.

Both. Though I will say that since nearly all of my playing time up until recently had been on the PvE side of things, I was pretty familiar with how the Freeps work. After playing around as a Freep for a short time, I decided the first thing I should do is get to know the Creep side of things better. So most of my time for the last couple of weeks has been spent playing various Creep classes across different servers.

Originally Posted by Frelorn

Both. Though I will say that since nearly all of my playing time up until recently had been on the PvE side of things, I was pretty familiar with how the Freeps work. After playing around as a Freep for a short time, I decided the first thing I should do is get to know the Creep side of things better. So most of my time for the last couple of weeks has been spent playing various Creep classes across different servers.

and what have you learned about creep side for playing a copple weeks oposed to playing on freep side?

welcome to the slums buddy. Seriously though, its nice to have you.

Always glad to see a dev actively listening to us.

One thing you might want to do is level a loremaster if you haven't already and take them into the ettens. I think you will probably see that a lot of the combat problems stem from their ridiculous arsenal of CC abilities. This is coming from a rank 7 LM btw There's no other class that causes creeps to say "Oh #$*^# they have a -insert class here- with them.

when you play, is it know that your from Turbine? or do you go all burglar on 'em and sneak in?


I would think that this is a given, but are you able to tell the "peak" times on each server for PVP? If not i would suggest talking to some of the more constant PVP'ers from each server to find out what times/days would give you the best cross section of activity from which to pull your experience.

once again, WELCOME.

Originally Posted by KainXI

Always glad to see a dev actively listening to us.

One thing you might want to do is level a loremaster if you haven't already and take them into the ettens. I think you will probably see that a lot of the combat problems stem from their ridiculous arsenal of CC abilities. This is coming from a rank 7 LM btw There's no other class that causes creeps to say "Oh #$*^# they have a -insert class here- with them.

Well I know on brandywine burgs are also considered God mode. They have the evade button the working disappear out of thin air button, and if stunned a big boost to health button. But thats because of green dot wargs most of the time.

Greetings, Frelorn!

Nothing boosts morale on these forums like a little Charred Dev Ear. Thanks for volunteering yours!

1. balance the CC so monster players aren't at a major diadvantage.

2.fix some of the wierd bugs that are on creep and freep side.

3. I can haz healer now? Or atleast some healer information now?

4. welcome to the monster play forums 0.o

Originally Posted by Frelorn

I have already been doing that along with playing on various servers just about every night. I have already learned quite a bit, but as with anything I can still learn more.

hope you were on Gladden yesterday in Aeon's creep raid...you would have seen much
welcome Frelorn, and thank you for taking the time to get a feel for PvMP

One request then:

Server specific PvMP issues need their own sub-folder for each server

Example
Elendilmir
--->Elendilmir Kinships
--->Elendilmir PvMP
--->Elendilmir Trade

This has been requested several times now and has yet to be implemented. I think the community is in general agreement that this would be a VAST improvement to our forum experience for both the PvE and PvMP crowds.

I will start off by saying hi,

I will qualify my statements by saying I have a fraction of the PvMP experience that many have(rank 2 ba is my highest)

I have one major concern. I do not mind having to improve my creep.

I do mind having no relatively safe place to do so.I know it is pvp but for the last several weeks it is more PvRaid.


I am not looking for easy ranking as i solo much of the time.But getting the destiny points required can be very tough when you cannot collect the basics without being killed over and over again.


I think that random wandering patrols in the grams area of the map would help.


also I have a new computer that scored a 5.9 on windows vista scale.

yet i can barely run around in the moors on all low settings without massive lag.

last but not least , having no counter to a 30 second time out (when pots have 2min cooldown) makes being a creep a very frustrating experience as well.

This got to me to the point that i stopped bringing my loremaster to the moors for now as i put myself in others shoes and i did not like the fit.

I am sure you will get much more enlightened feedback from the vets but this is my list of issues.


ty for asking

My two cents:

CC -- 30 sec stuns chain stuns and roots tar etc. all over again and again and again that take ur character from gameplay: not = pvp

The game has interesting combat and beauty of it is that u don’t kill enemy in 2 shoots, tho negative buffs that stuck and make ur character helpless through the whole fight is plain *@#%* in pvp. Lets fight not play chicken c*ap hehe.

I know freeps are design to run... afraid to die and attack in huge groups usually protected by bears on top of it but pvp players shouldn’t suffer all this annoyance I mentioned above because they chose to play creeps. I guess until things change most pvpers will sooner or later move to find a new home hehe, so if turbine is serious to keep real pvp expanding they should have an idea what to do by now.

PS Burglars ..no comments...

When I see a Turbine name asking for what we think, I cannot help but reply.

I have been playing the game since closed Beta. I founded and still lead one of the healthiest Heavy RP Kinships on my server. At first I had little interest in the Moors; it existed primarily as a place where my high level members ran off to and got enchated by. Several folks quit my kinship just so they could join PvMP kinships.

That has changed. PvMPers may give Roleplayers a hard time, but in the Red Arrows at least, we embrace all kinds of LotRO play and that includes the Moors. We have a small group of PvMPers who spend a lot of time there now, and then come back to RP with the rest of us for social events and questing. Almost all of our high-level players have spent some time there. We even made the Rank 1 cloak part of our unofficial uniform, since the three spearheads look sort of like red arrows.

I myself have had fun there as my Captain. I'm not a very good PvPer, and my Captain is traited for healing, not DPS, so I am strictly support. But I can melee effectively by working with Raid Leaders, and I have more killing blows than I have deaths. The Delving of Fror has been interesting and I may return there -- but the steady camping of all the bosses seems like a waste of time and energy on the part of the devs. Surely that is not what you intended, and there might be a better way?

I worked up to Rank 3 to get a couple pieces of armour, and I spent a small fortune on Luminous Stones when camping drove me to death from boredom. But the number of Stones required to get the higher level items -- and the fact that I already have some critted crafter tier 5 items and don't need the whole PvP set -- means I have stopped going to the Moors for a while. I don't have any real reason to go, but I hope I get another reason soon.

I am looking forward to Volume 2 as an expansion of PvMP into a new area which I might visit. And I would like to see the Delving cured of its camping. I would like Tokens of Valour to be worth something. And why would I ever try to quest in the Moors when I get jumped by Wargs every time I try? Just get rid of the non-Raid quests; they're suicide traps. Unless, I suppose, you are a Burglar.

Originally Posted by Frelorn

We want to know what everyone involved in monster play has to say. Your feedback is something that is very valuable to us, but sometimes it tends to get lost in various areas throughout these forums. If you have something you would like to discuss relating to PvMP, please post in the monster play section of the forums.

Going forward I will be helping out here, specifically with issues relating to PvMP, so having everything in one location will be helpful to me in gathering information and pointing out threads to the Devs.

Thanks and I look forward to getting to know all of you in the coming weeks and months.

you left AC? You were very good over there.

I play both freeps and creeps and freeps are overpowered for sure.

#1 The number 1 thing that does not make pvp fun is CC. I have been chain mezzed so many times that I have had to put down my keyboard and take a break for a day or 2. All players in pvp should have a 1 min immunity to stuns, roots, mezzes. Diminishing returns does not fix anything at all. 35 Sec mezzes are way too long, it should atleast be cut in half for pvp.

#2 oil is a little ridiuclous. All it causes is creeps hiding behind it and noone killing each other for hours. It should not hit for half your health, and it should not constantly come down. I think there should be a way to destroy it or turn it off if you can get up to the top of the keep.

#3 creeps should regenerate health in combat.
#4 trolls should be nerfed or taken out (as well as rangers). Troll's 10-15sec aoe stun is not fun at all, rangers should get an AOE
#5 all slows should be cut in half (a 40% slow now should be a 20% slow).
#6 Dust in the eyes..if you get 4 of them on you it's basically a 30sec stun.. this is basically a no brainer
#7 Weavers should be more powerful, they are definitely the weakest class. I think a high rank ranged high damage over time would fit them well. They are a ranged class and need more dps.

#1 Fix rank 9 weaver racial
#2 Actually make some of these +1% racials for all creep classes into something useful.
#3 Fix spider web bug on stun immunity
#4 3 Creeps can take a undefended keep. Should not happen.
#5 Get rid of those 30 sec roots and mezzes and bring them to the 10 second mark at least.
#6 Glimmering stones are a waste once you get your racials done. Maybe make it so you can trade 50 glimmering for 25 dull etc.
#7 Delving mob drops freep only pots, why can't we get creep drops when creeps kill mobs in delving?

Originally Posted by Asheron86

I play both freeps and creeps and freeps are overpowered for sure.

#1 The number 1 thing that does not make pvp fun is CC. I have been chain mezzed so many times that I have had to put down my keyboard and take a break for a day or 2. All players in pvp should have a 1 min immunity to stuns, roots, mezzes. Diminishing returns does not fix anything at all. 35 Sec mezzes are way too long, it should atleast be cut in half for pvp.

Sure, just give those who rely heavily on CC because of the way the class was built (Loremaster) an alternative form of DPS to compensate, without CC we are nothing but squishy book worms who like waving our staves around .

#2 oil is a little ridiuclous. All it causes is creeps hiding behind it and noone killing each other for hours. It should not hit for half your health, and it should not constantly come down. I think there should be a way to destroy it or turn it off if you can get up to the top of the keep.

There is a way to turn if off when you get to the top of the keep, you kill the Tyrant/C-G. It's no easy feat turning it on so it should be worth a good chunk of damage, and coordinated groups can get past it easily.

#3 creeps should regenerate health in combat.

Maybe, but you get a racial at rank 9? or is it 11? no matter it is quite high up and the while It should be lowered by maybe a rank or two...I don't think creeps were meant to get it without traits. (Weavers get a class trait that gives them 2 ICMR early on )

4 trolls should be nerfed or taken out (as well as rangers). Troll's 10-15sec aoe stun is not fun at all, rangers should get an AOE

Easiest thing here is to just get rid of session play which I agree with completely, totally ruined the moors.

#5 all slows should be cut in half (a 40% slow now should be a 20% slow).

Instead of cutting all slows in half, you need to get a system that cuts it down based on Diminishing returns percentiles that don't stack but rather only give a percentage based on the amount of slows already on the target.

#6 Dust in the eyes..if you get 4 of them on you it's basically a 30sec stun.. this is basically a no brainer

Um, this is the same exact gripe as #5 and while I know it's frustrating if you happen to run or be ganked by 4 burglars, chances are you were going to die anyways....DITE or no DITE. Same thing with wargs so you really can't argue that DITE is a no brainer or a 30 second stun because you were already dead to begin with.

#7 Weavers should be more powerful, they are definitely the weakest class. I think a high rank ranged high damage over time would fit them well. They are a ranged class and need more dps.

I agree that the class needs some loving, as well as an incease to ranged DPS as well as having their poison attacks changed to either only be checked by BPE or checked by resists, not both. As it stands now the spiders ranged poison attack is checked by BPE AND resists meaning that freeps get a serious amount of "protection" versus weaver attacks.

Originally Posted by Sykomyke

Um, this is the same exact gripe as #5 and while I know it's frustrating if you happen to run or be ganked by 4 burglars, chances are you were going to die anyways....DITE or no DITE. Same thing with wargs so you really can't argue that DITE is a no brainer or a 30 second stun because you were already dead to begin with.

ok so lets give burglars a skill that if there are 4 of them around it one shots you, i mean you were basically gonna die anyway

I think that a lot of work needs to be done to address disparities in freep vs creep numbers, advantages particular classes have, incentives to come to the Moors and overall types of battles that occur.

Some suggestions:

1. Reduce maximum ranged attacks in the Moors to 15-20 meters- This should should allow more melee interaction and also make CC somewhat less effective or harder to get off. This would also help with Grams camping.

2. Get rid of creep maps (except Grams) and give them earnable mounts. Creep ping-ponging gets old and if both sides are on mounts they should clash at more random places. If you keep creep maps let captains summon.

3. Reduce renown/infamy gain and use game-wide data to give individual classes a modifier to even out renown/infamy gain. Adjust gains, so that solo, small group and raids are all equally viable.

4. Get rid of Trolls/Rangers or make them much more difficult to get and worth something when killed. Maybe they could cost luminous stones or some other rare item. Do creeps use luminous stones for anything?

5. Increase rewards in the Delvings and put a rank requirement to make stone farmers at least put in some time to earn the right to farm.

6. Make keeps more difficult to take and increase the rewards for taking them. Perhaps more silver and let creeps transfer extra wealth to freep alts. Fix the mechanics so that keep defenders need to be killed.

7. Have the server dynamically adjust NPC damage output and morale to account for imbalances in freep vs creep numbers and kill ratios.

8. Add options for using tokens and destiny points. Maybe convertible for cash or consumables.

9. Add stealth potions and run-speed buffs for the classes that don't have skills or make the existing skills less game-breaking.

10. Build-in a robust, moderatable, Vent like, Voice system to level the playing field.

11. Figure out ways to make Guardians, Minstrels and Weavers more useful in the Moors.

12. Add a medium PvP amour option for Minstrel Delvings rewards, more might come out if there were a unique set.

13. Create an arena instance for creep vs freep duels and allow other players to view the match from Grams or GV. This would be fun and if folks can watch it would reduce the chances of abuse.

Dano

Why exactly do you think Minstrel's aren't useful in the Moors? They are the single most useful class in the Moors, IMO. I mean, if creeps have to take them down in order to wipe the freeps in almost all cases, that says something about how useful they are.

Originally Posted by Frelorn

We want to know what everyone involved in monster play has to say. Your feedback is something that is very valuable to us, but sometimes it tends to get lost in various areas throughout these forums. If you have something you would like to discuss relating to PvMP, please post in the monster play section of the forums.

Going forward I will be helping out here, specifically with issues relating to PvMP, so having everything in one location will be helpful to me in gathering information and pointing out threads to the Devs.

Thanks and I look forward to getting to know all of you in the coming weeks and months.

Does this mean you're off of AC1?

If so, I may cancel my lifetime subscription to LOTRO and go back there.

1st things that comes to mind is why didn't you guys let us know barbed arrow would no longer pop wargs out of stealth? I'll give you an out: was it never intended to do that?

From what I have read Turbine created MP in its present form because A) its was just meant to be a side gig and B) they wanted to avoid having to balance classes against each other. In other words they didn't want PvE affected by PvP which is a good thing.

The success of PvMP comes from the fact that they pit freeps against creeps. It's such an awesome idea that MP has become more than a side gig. The problem that we have now is what Turbine wanted to avoid in the first place...class balance.

I suggest that they make the classes on both sides identical. When a freep enters the Moors they transform into a version of their class that is Moors specific. Each freep will have a creep counterpart that has the same abilities, gear etc. All gear will be Moors specific and stays there when you leave. The only differences between freeps and creeps will be cosmetic appearances.

This solves a couple of problems and makes a few others easier to fix. It solves the problem of freeps being more powerful than creeps. It solves the problem of some classes being gimped...ie Guards and thier useless threat skills. It will make balancing classes and gear easier and any changes made will not affect PvE what so ever.

Lore Master = Necromancer
Captain = War Leader
Burg = Warg
Champ = Reaver
Hunter = BA
Minstrel = Defiler
Guard = Weaver

New comer freeps/creeps enter moors and get a base generic armour/weapon set. Note: some creeps will still have hide and claws/fangs with the same stats as thier counterparts. They can gain additional gear/upgrades through rank and questing.

Skills will be completely different though similar to PvE skills. It would be nice to have fewer skills than what we have in PvE.

Get rid of Rangers and add Ents that are identical to Trolls. Trolls and Ents will be available based on population not keeps. This avoids the problem of one side out numbering the other but not owning any keeps then griefing/ steam rolling the other side. You should get one troll/ent for every ten people the other side has more than yours. Max of three trolls/ents.

There would be a lot of things to iron out but it might be easier than trying to fix what we have now. Anyway, it's just a suggestion.

PS: Give creeps more appearance options and get rid of stars.

@Wondecr. I read your post after typing mine. Great ideas.

Originally Posted by IronIngot

From what I have read Turbine created MP in its present form because A) its was just meant to be a side gig and B) they wanted to avoid having to balance classes against each other. In other words they didn't want PvE affected by PvP which is a good thing.

The success of PvMP comes from the fact that they pit freeps against creeps. It's such an awesome idea that MP has become more than a side gig. The problem that we have now is what Turbine wanted to avoid in the first place...class balance.

I suggest that they make the classes on both sides identical. When a freep enters the Moors they transform into a version of their class that is Moors specific. Each freep will have a creep counterpart that has the same abilities, gear etc. All gear will be Moors specific and stays there when you leave. The only differences between freeps and creeps will be cosmetic appearances.

This solves a couple of problems and makes a few others easier to fix. It solves the problem of freeps being more powerful than creeps. It solves the problem of some classes being gimped...ie Guards and thier useless threat skills. It will make balancing classes and gear easier and any changes made will not affect PvE what so ever.

Lore Master = Necromancer
Captain = War Leader
Burg = Warg
Champ = Reaver
Hunter = BA
Minstrel = Defiler
Guard = Weaver

New comer freeps/creeps enter moors and get a base generic armour/weapon set. Note: some creeps will still have hide and claws/fangs with the same stats as thier counterparts. They can gain additional gear/upgrades through rank and questing.

Skills will be completely different though similar to PvE skills. It would be nice to have fewer skills than what we have in PvE.

Get rid of Rangers and add Ents that are identical to Trolls. Trolls and Ents will be available based on population not keeps. This avoids the problem of one side out numbering the other but not owning any keeps then griefing/ steam rolling the other side. You should get one troll/ent for every ten people the other side has more than yours. Max of three trolls/ents.

There would be a lot of things to iron out but it might be easier than trying to fix what we have now. Anyway, it's just a suggestion.

PS: Give creeps more appearance options and get rid of stars.

@Wondecr. I read your post after typing mine. Great ideas.

Thanks! I agree with you whole-heartedly. Lets keep the Moors a game unto itself. What happens there, stays there. I believe it is easier to overhaul with some of our mutual ideas than try to band-aid what is there and continue annoying people with the inevitable and eternal imbalance of one side over the other.

I like the ent replacement for the rangers. Rangers don't add much other than an invisible one-shotter and really are not adding to the lore. The ents are much more in line with what happened in the books and solves the imbalance between rangers and trolls.

The addition of a loremaster equivalent monster class is essential to make it work properly as a balanced environment. They already have plans to add the defiler. Perhaps they can apply this island philosophy to the Moria expansion then retrofit it into the current production version.

I'd like to see:

1. REAL balance. (The 3 to 1 things was fine at launch, but right now the numbers are pretty even and creeps regularly get rolled).
2. Real and achievable advancement on the MP side. (Only 10 million more infamy to go on my underpowered creep to get that uber ability... oh wait, it stinks too and I'll still be weaker than a freep).
3. Vastly expanded borders.

I've got a few creeps that are rank 5. Haven't logged any of them on in about a month. Just got sick of it. And really, PvE has gotten a little stale lately. PvP used to be a good outlet and fun break from the PvE grind. But after awhile the imbalance just made it aggravating to play.

Originally Posted by Trainedmonkey

This is my goodbye post, i have had it with turbine for not giving there "A Game" to fix bugs make new content that is more then just half done and leave it be for 4 or even 6 months before even looking at it again, never giving the moors a true make over to make "Everyone" happy it's just a endless farm renown/inf now days, small grps becoming rare solo'er getting run over by a raid.

now i'm doing this for the Players, not myself or you guys that own this game

1. After gaining Rank 6+ the renown/inf for soloing in the moors will give a base of 1000 renown/inf, and to small grps (rank 6+ only again) will get that 1000 renown/inf split between them, Raid renown/inf stays the same.

2. Add Destiny Points to all the Freep Moors quests, taking a keep will give them 1000 + there 3 Tokens of Valour (this will lower the number of dp farmers on the creep side and keeping freeps from coming over to gramsfoot slug pit as much as they do)

3. Keep guards there weak we all know it time to buff them! for the 3 main keeps elites/elite masters, bottom floor repops must be faster to force the raid that is in the keep to take it! oh and if the Captain/Tyrant get reset the keep is fully reset .

this will make the moors more fun and target the true PvP'er thanks you and take care

Response to 1) No thank you! It seriously won't do anything because then we'll go back to what we did Pre-Bk12 on E, which is everyone is solo'ing or small groups coordinated via vent. Combined with that and that everyone would be worth 1000 as an opponant, the infamy gains would be TRULY huge and accelerated

Agree with 2, and given how many morons play, 3 would grief the heck out of any raid who had a dumb member run out of the room (or make an intentional griefer FAR happier). Better thing would be to lengthen the 'leash' on the tyrant at least to the entrance of the keep and prevent the possibility of single pulling the CG away from the FM's (yes this will hurt creeps a lot more than freeps, specially small strike groups)

While I didn't read through all 15 pages of replies I would imagine that this has been brought up already.

I'm fed up with the chain rooting/mezzing. One time last week I was in a group that went up against a Freep raid with 8 loremasters. I spent more time sitting there unable to move or running back from the rez circle than I did fighting.

I can easily burn a full stack of each type of pot in less than an hour if I choose to use them that frequently. Often I use one, take three steps and I'm rooted again. By that time it's pretty much over.

There needs to be an immunity period or something put in place.

Even 5 seconds like stun immunity would be better than what we have right now.

Turbine didn't like the hunters being able to chain fear mobs so they changed bard's arrow (I'm still angry about that by the way) but they continue to have their heads buried in the sand and ignore this problem of chain rooting/mezzing.

No, I don't play on the preview server because I have a family and spend enough time playing as it is so I don't know what the Defiler will do to help guard against this (if anything) but we'll see if Turbine decides to just blow of a very real problem with an otherwise fun diversion from grinding.

This still needs to be addressed as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by Optix2

No, I don't play on the preview server because I have a family and spend enough time playing as it is so I don't know what the Defiler will do to help guard against this (if anything) but we'll see if Turbine decides to just blow of a very real problem with an otherwise fun diversion from grinding.

This still needs to be addressed as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah sorry to break it to you. But they screwed up this book also. The defiler has "ZERO" effect on the CC spam. (And its fearing ability doesn't matter, as its only effective against people sitting on his head.) So no new creep CC, and no new anti-CC. Another book, and turbine is still run by monkies that couldn't do a balanced Pvp game to save their lives.

Would have been nice if the Defiler had a bubble like the WL, except it was immunity to CC (same times and cooldowns as the WL)

Some will say it should be more difficult to get a higher rank, and I would agree. But the reward for a Rank 7 Weaver is a different colored symbol by your noggin and an ability that adds +1% Light Mitigation; +3 Stealth Level and +1% Westernesse Mitigation.

I can create a whole new Rank 6 creep and receive a lot more abilities and versatility to my creep play then grind onto Rank 7 Weaver.

I know there are several other excellent examples for other creeps, but I think the reward for ranking should be a lot higher for the effort that's currently required.

When freeps get bored, they can go to Bree to have a beer, do some dungeons, or even craft stuff. For us creeps we are forever stuck in the Monster Isle (err Ettenmoors) waiting to kill another freep to level.

At this moment the main issue I would like to see adressed is the insane lag that has been in the Moors ever since Book 12. I use to be able to handle raid vs raid fights with little lag on medium settings. Now I can only move every 30 seconds on very low settings. My memory is up to snuff as well as my vid card, and I can handle the regular game great on ultra high.

Because of it, I have been staying out of the moors.

Suggestion:

Keep the 'moors for people who like the ZvZ format.

And make a population controlled instance for people who want smaller skirmishes.

That way people can have both types of arenas to fight within. The population may split, but at least people will be happy they are playing the type of PvP system they are happy with.

There needs to be restrictions on Stealth-based attacks. Stealth, in general, in a PvP environment is an awesome skill in itself, even without an attack attached to it. At present moment, stealth stun-attacks land 100% of the time. Stealth, at mid-range stage of the game, is very difficult to detect unless you are fortunate enough to have someone buffing you (freep), or you trait it (creep).

I understand that a stealthy attack should have a higher chance to hit, but because of that alone, those hits need to be limited in either frequency (longer cooldowns on these attacks) or potency (less CC-enabled stealth attacks, more DPS instead).

Another alternative would be to decrease the effectiveness of Stealth, which would decrease both frequency and potency both - not a bad idea either. A possible suggestion for Stealth detection might be to reduce a players stealth level by half a level for every 2-3 players within a certain radius.

For example, a level 50 stealthed player that has +6 stealth level in gear/traits encounters a group/raid of 6 players. His stealth level reduces by 2 or 3, which then reduces his stealths effectiveness. If he encounters a raid of 24, his stealth level drops by 8-12. In reality (as real as a fantasy game/world can be), what creature/burglar is going to be able to surprise stun someone when multiple eyes are on the lookout?

The Defiler needs to be cleaned up a bit, so hears my suggestions:
1) Fertile Slime for what its worth is a joke as it stands now, If you are not going to lower the power cost in half then give it the ability to remove wounds as well as its H.O.T. for the same power cost of 56.

2) Sticky Feet is ok with the trait, however, again if you leave it as is then the power cost should be half what it is for what it does. If you leave the power cost as is then double the duration and/or lose the cooldown.

3) Plague Gourd gets resisted too much on the preview server, so it needs to be tweaked. You can reduce the power to 42 from 77 and leave it the same or increase the damage and debuff percentages, by both doubling them. Why, because Plague Gourd only lands about 50% of the time and the debuff with it lands about 25% of the time with or without the trait slotted, which that in itself i don't understand.

4) Fungal Spores has a power cost of 121 and does a total of 1911 over 30 seconds. However, Fungal Bloom has a power cost of 56 and does a total of 1578 over 30 seconds.
Simple, the power cost vs. amount of healing doesn't justify using the rank 5 slotted Fungal Spores ever. I did the math. Think about it, 2 Fungal Blooms add up to 112 power vs. 121 and does 3156 healing for less total cost. Please adjust fungal Spores to either be a group heal to justify cost (which BTW is the same cost, 121, that the WL uses for its group healing) or lower the power cost or increase the healing output. Do something, don't nerf it.

What are your positive thoughts on this subject matter?

Originally Posted by AllHeart

What are your positive thoughts on this subject matter?

I'm positive that they don't need to make the defiler even more uber than it already is. Everybody and his brother is rolling one already from what I'm hearing.

The defiler was and remains a horrible idea. The decision to nerf WL shouts in conjunction with its introduction (a slap in the face to go with the kick in the nuts) is equally horrible.

I play the game mainly to make my guy a little bit stronger, a little bit tougher, a little bit meaner over time. I realize that that process is going to take a long time and result in smaller payoffs (diminishing returns) but when you're the most nerfed class already and they cripple your main attack (about the only fun thing left for a WL to do) in conjunction with introducing a class that takes away a lot of your healing responsibilities, you wonder what's the point of continuing when your active skills have been so thoroughly devalued.